Rome vs Islam

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by GODzThunder, Jul 8, 2003.

  1. GODzThunder

    GODzThunder
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    In Baptist Eschatology there is an iron-clad belief that the final world empire in the last days will be comprised of a revived Roman Empire and that the Antichrist shall ascend from Rome. In latter times however, there is a new belief that the final empire will be Islamic (as what is now the Islamic nations were once part of the Eastern Roman Empire). My debate topic is this: Do you believe that the Antichrist and his kingdom shall come from the western part of the old empire (Rome/Europe) with a European Beast, or the eastern part (Constaninople/Islam) with an Islamic Beast, OR some other idea?
     
  2. Johnv

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    I thought that the antichrist was either Jack Chick or Alex Trebek.

    Nothing against Canadians, but I tend to fear people who know everything about everything ;)
     
  3. BrianT

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    I don't think it's "iron clad". It's definitely common in Baptist circles, but there's definitely not universal agreement about this.

    I don't really know. Would the Jews even be fooled by a false messiah that wasn't even Jewish?
     
  4. Tim

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    Dispensational prophecy-zealots have always operated on theologically shifting sands. That's what happens when the News guides your interpretation of Scripture.

    In Christ,

    Tim
     
  5. Sola-Scriptura

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    Hey Tim... [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] You get the thrice thumbs up for that. People, let's stop with the subjective hermeneutics and behold the one in whom all the promises of God are Yea and Amen! Jesus said that all the scriptures pointed to Him, talk about Him, declare Him.
    The Lord Jesus Christ.
     
  6. LadyEagle

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    Link to Rest of Expose

    It will be a combination, I believe, the Ecumenical Church/ RCC / and Islam with Islam as the Dominant Force. It will be a religious / political organization, just as prophesied.
     
  7. JesusisGod2

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    I don't think it's "iron clad". It's definitely common in Baptist circles, but there's definitely not universal agreement about this.

    I don't really know. Would the Jews even be fooled by a false messiah that wasn't even Jewish?
    </font>[/QUOTE]==================================================

    Great post and great answer,

    I also lean more toward anti-Christ being Jewish for the same reason that I dont believe the Jews will swear alligience to anyone but a Jew as thier Messiah.

    As far as the "revived Roman empire" or Mystery Babylon as it is refered to in Revelation, here is some food for thought.

    It is believed that the army of 200,000,000 strong was in reference to China, of which China boast today that they could muster today if needed.
    and it very well could be the army spoken of.

    but there are two other nations that could muster such an army, and they are:

    1) India
    2) The nation of Islam

    The nation of Islam consist of all Muslim countries (i.e. Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Iran, Syria, etc) as well as countries you wouldn't normally think of as Muslim such as France (I believe thier predominate religion is Muslim) Africa, Russia, Etc.. and even The United States of which there are many residence here who claim to belong to the Nation Of Islam. They are all over the world and most importantly they are directly north of Israel.

    I too used to think of the European nations as the ones to watch, but am not real sure any more. it could be as has been thought by many scholars that the Roman Empire as Rome as the headquarters will be revived again as the historical boundries.
    but now I can picture a different scenario.

    Just a thought, what are yours on this?

    God bless!

    [ July 08, 2003, 04:16 PM: Message edited by: JesusisGod2 ]
     
  8. Johnv

    Johnv
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    Typically, the antichrist is usually whatever person or group we don't like at the time. Twenty years ago, it was the European Union, today, it's Muslims and Catholics, twenty years from now, it'll be vegetarians and NASA employees, or some such nonsense.
     
  9. JesusisGod2

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    ==================================================

    Good point, but I think twenty years from now it will all be over and we will be in the kingdom of the true ruler.
    of course the time frame is strictly my opinion.
     
  10. Johnv

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    I disagree with your view of the time frame. I don't expect to see it happen in my lifetime. However, I think that we'd be in agreement that we should live every day as though Jesus were coming tomorrow.
     
  11. Grasshopper

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    Hate to break up the guessing game but:

    Babylon = Jerusalem

    The Babylon of Revelation epitomises the degradation and corruption against which the Lord would execute judgement. It represents for many the sinful world, Rome (and hence also the Roman Catholic Church!) or even the United States of America. Its destruction therefore represents the punishment on whatever sinful establishment happens to be prevalent at the time it is interpreted.

    I believe that Babylon is no more or less than Jerusalem itself. God had already prophesied against Babylon and executed judgement on her (Isaiah 13). Its wickedness was directed against God’s chosen people. Israel (Jerusalem) had followed the same path of wickedness, and was to receive the same judgement.

    Why would Jerusalem be called by another name?

    Simply because its behaviour was not befitting the Holy City. It had corrupted into another Babylon. It was even equated with Sodom and Egypt (Revelation 11:8). No wonder God turned His back on her, removed His blessing and His presence.

    Revelation is all about God’s displeasure with the holders of the Old Covenant, and the establishment of the New Covenant. The following points show that Babylon as portrayed in Revelation is symbolic for Jerusalem.

    Both are referred to as 'The great city'
    Babylon:

    Revelation 18:10 - " 'Woe, woe, the great city, Babylon, the strong city! For in one hour your judgment has come.' (16) … 'Woe, woe, the great city, she who was clothed in fine linen and purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls… (18) and were crying out as they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, 'What {city} is like the great city?' (19) "And they threw dust on their heads and were crying out, weeping and mourning, saying, 'Woe, woe, the great city, in which all who had ships at sea became rich by her wealth, for in one hour she has been laid waste!'

    Jerusalem:

    Revelation 11:8 - And their dead bodies {will lie} in the street of the great city which mystically is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified.

    Both are described as 'whores' and 'adulterors':
    Babylon:

    Revelation 17:1 - Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and spoke with me, saying, "Come here, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot who sits on many waters, (2) with whom the kings of the earth committed {acts of} immorality, and those who dwell on the earth were made drunk with the wine of her immorality." (5) and on her forehead a name {was} written, a mystery, "BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH."

    Jerusalem:

    Ezekeiel 6:9 - "Then those of you who escape will remember Me among the nations to which they will be carried captive, how I have been hurt by their adulterous hearts which turned away from Me, and by their eyes which played the harlot after their idols; and they will loathe themselves in their own sight for the evils which they have committed, for all their abominations."

    Ezekiel 16: 15 - "But you trusted in your beauty and played the harlot because of your fame, and you poured out your harlotries on every passer-by who might be {willing.} (16) "You took some of your clothes, made for yourself high places of various colors and played the harlot on them, which should never come about nor happen.

    Jeremiah 3:1 - God says, "If a husband divorces his wife and she goes from him and belongs to another man, Will he still return to her? Will not that land be completely polluted? But you are a harlot {with} many lovers; Yet you turn to Me," declares the LORD. (2) "Lift up your eyes to the bare heights and see; Where have you not been violated? By the roads you have sat for them Like an Arab in the desert, and you have polluted a land with your harlotry and with your wickedness. (3) "Therefore the showers have been withheld, And there has been no spring rain. Yet you had a harlot's forehead; You refused to be ashamed. (4) "Have you not just now called to Me, 'My Father, You are the friend of my youth? … (6) Then the LORD said to me in the days of Josiah the king, "Have you seen what faithless Israel did? She went up on every high hill and under every green tree, and she was a harlot there. … (8) "And I saw that for all the adulteries of faithless Israel, I had sent her away and given her a writ of divorce, yet her treacherous sister Judah did not fear; but she went and was a harlot also.

    Both are responsible for the blood of the saints etc
    Babylon:

    Revelation 17:6 - And I saw the woman drunk with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the witnesses of Jesus. When I saw her, I wondered greatly.

    Revelation 18:24 - "And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints and of all who have been slain on the earth."

    Jerusalem:

    Matthew 23:30 - "…and [you Pharisees] say, 'If we had been {living} in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partners with them in {shedding} the blood of the prophets.' (31) "So you testify against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. (32) "Fill up, then, the measure {of the guilt} of your fathers… (34) "Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, (35) so that upon you may fall {the guilt of} all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. (36) "Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation. (37) "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! ... (38) "Behold, your house is being left to you desolate!"

    (Incidentally, if Babylon were not Jerusalem or Israel, and was to be punished for the blood of the saints and prophets, then Jesus’ words in verse 35 would have proved false.)

    1 Thessalonians 2:14 - For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God in Christ Jesus that are in Judea, for you also endured the same sufferings at the hands of your own countrymen, even as they {did} from the Jews, (15) who both killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove us out. They are not pleasing to God, but hostile to all men, (16) hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved; with the result that they always fill up the measure of their sins. But wrath has come upon them to the utmost.

    The saints were warned to escape the wrath that would fall on both cities
    Babylon:

    Revelation 18:4 - I heard another voice from heaven, saying, "Come out of her, my people, so that you will not participate in her sins and receive of her plagues; (5) for her sins have piled up as high as heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities.

    Revelation 18:23 - …and the light of a lamp will not shine in you any longer; and the voice of the bridegroom and bride will not be heard in you any longer; (This may be a reference to Jesus, the bridegroom, and the Church, the bride).

    Jerusalem:

    Luke 21:20- "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near. (21) "Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city; (22) because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled.

    Babylon is adorned like a priest
    Exodus 28: 5ff – Here is a description of the priestly garments prescribed by God.

    Blue, gold, scarlet, purple. Stones: filigree settings of gold; onyx (9), others (17ff), engraved plate of pure gold to attach to a turban, showing on Aaron’s forehead, with "Holy to the Lord" written on it.

    Babylon:

    Revelation 17:4 - The woman was clothed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls, having in her hand a gold cup full of abominations and of the unclean things of her immorality, (5) and on her forehead a name {was} written, a mystery, "BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH."

    Revelation 18:16 - …Woe, woe, the great city, she who was clothed in fine linen and purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls;

    Both were attacked by huge 'hailstones'
    Revelation 16:19 - Babylon the great was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of His fierce wrath. (20) And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. (21) And huge hailstones, about one hundred pounds (literally: one talent) each, came down from heaven upon men; and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail, because its plague was extremely severe.

    The word for 'hailstones' is chalaza, which is used only three times in the New Testament, each in the same way. It does not specifically refer to frozen water, although I do not know if this is the exclusive use of the word in the Greek. In Revelation, it may be figurative or descriptive, referring simply to huge stones falling from the sky. Strong's states that the word is probably derived from Chalao, which means to let down or drop.

    Josephus relates that Jerusalem was pounded by stones from catapults, each stone weighing a talent, that smashed the defenses of the city.(War of the Jews, Book 5, Ch 6:3).

    Conclusion:

    There are probably other evidences, but the abovementioned convince me that:

    The prophesies relating to Babylon actually applied to Jerusalem. They reflect other prophesies against Jerusalem, and further show God's displeasure with what had been the Holy City.
    The Revelation to John was not a story of the end of the world, but a description of the end of the Old Covenant and the temple.
    In light of the above, and the fact that (a) the events were to occur 'soon', and (b) Jerusalem and the temple were in fact wiped out around that time, the content of the Revelation is the strongest argument for an early writing of the book. It makes no sense for a dating after AD70, when the promised 'soon' events actually took place when and to whom they were promised. It would be easier to believe they had been written retrospectively about Jerusalem than that they had been written about the world a couple of thousand years later! Yet there is no need for this: Other evidences show that the book had been written as a divinely inspired prophesy before the event.
     
  12. BrianT

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    Good post, I came to the same conclusion several months ago. "Rome" is the common interpretation, but that interpretation is based on entirely on extra-Biblical opinion. If you let scripture interpret scripture, the Rome interpretation has virtually no support, while the Jerusalem interpretation has truckloads.
     
  13. Karen

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  14. Johnv

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    Certinaly, Jesus "could" come tomorrow. I don't think anyone disputes that. But I've heard this taken to an extreme. I've heard pastors saying we shouldn't bother with retirement accounts, or making funeral arrangements. I attended a Baptist college with a girl who was convinced that Jesus was going to come before she graduated. Well, that was 15 years ago, and her grades unfortunately sufferred, because, rather than living like it might happen tomorrow, she also lived like it "WAS" going to happen tomorrow.
     
  15. npetreley

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    I would dispute that.
     
  16. Johnv

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    Okay, well, I stand corrected. :D
     
  17. npetreley

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    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  18. Tim

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    What prophecy teacher was talking about Islam 30 years ago?


    I only hear the whistling of the wind.
     
  19. JesusisGod2

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    Grasshopper you bring up some good points, some I have never thought of before.

    But I do believe that one of the great cities that Revelation is talking about is Rome.

    Rev 17:9 the 7 heads represent 7 mountains on which the woman sits. There is only one city in the world that fits that description and that is Rome. so this would be the religiuos leader "whore"

    Rev18:6 says the woman was drunk with the blood of the saints and martyrs of Jesus. although the Jews did put to death Christians, the city of Rome did more so. as a matter of fact they made sport of it. and this was under the direction of the Roman church of which Cesar was looked at as God or His representative. (Even a lot of Catholics I talk with believe that there will come an "anti-pope")

    Now the Roman Empire of old controled most of the middle east, including Israel. so my thoughts that "mystery Babylon" is to be the Revived Roman Empire.

    In Rev 18:21 :...that great city, Babylon, be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all"

    Now as far as the political leader (anti-Christ) I also believe he could come from Israel.
     
  20. Tim

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    Rev. 11:8 very specifically points to Jerusalem ("where our Lord was crucified") as a spiritual "Sodom" or "Egypt"--a place ready for destruction, from which the people of God would escape. So we can be sure it is referenced there.

    As far as the references in Rev. 17 & 18--I think it is possible that both Israel and Rome are in mind. God raised up Rome to destroy apostate Israel, but then reserved judgement upon Rome as well for their own persecution of the saints. Perhaps it is specifically the family in power in Rome that would receive the immediate judgement. That would coincide with Nero's demise and the subsequent regime change.

    Finally, I always question why many feel compelled to "revive" the Roman Empire. I believe it served it's purposes and fulfilled it's prophecies. The answer lies in whether or not one inserts gaps into the prophecies of Daniel. Dan 2:40-44 clearly states that the eternal kingdom will be formed in the days of the fourth kingdom (Rome)--and so it was! We are now living in the spiritual kingdom in which Christ reigns. Whether it is later manifested in a more premillenial way or in the amil way--it will last forevermore. There is no need for a revived Roman empire to be formed again in order for these prophesies to be true, and indeed already fulfilled. I've never seen any way in which anyone with a keen knowledge of history can equate anything we see in the EU with such a "revived" Roman empire. It just doesn't fit--not do we need to force such a square peg into a round hole.

    In Christ,

    Tim
     

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