Rome's Mary on the Cross and God's Throne

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Gregory Perry Sr., Mar 27, 2013.

  1. Gregory Perry Sr.

    Gregory Perry Sr.
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    The above "title" is of an article at WayofLife.org by Bro.David Cloud. In light of recent events in the Catholic Church and the world I believe the subject matter is very relevant to all here including those on this board that are professing and practicing Catholics. I am posting this article in its entirety with the prior permission of Bro.Cloud since it is copyrighted material. The article is as follows:

    Bro.Greg:saint:
    For photos of Mary on God’s throne, Mary the Queen of Peace, Mary hanging on the cross, Mary adored by the apostles, and Mary on the ark of the covenant see the following:
    www.wayoflife.org/database/maryolatry.html
    _____________________

    In spite of claims of contemporary Catholic propagandists, the Roman Catholic Church worships Mary. They use the term “venerate,” but it is the same thing.

    According to Rome, she was immaculately (sinlessly) conceived, participated in Christ’s suffering for mankind, ascended bodily to Heaven, was crowned Queen of the universe, and intercedes for sinners.

    During a radio message concluding the Jubilee of the Redemption, April 28, 1935, Pope Pius XI gave the Catholic Mary the title Co-redemptrix. At least five times Pope Paul II referred to her by this title in his papal statements. In his general audience in 1997, he said that Mary “collaborated in obtaining the grace of salvation for all humanity” (Vatican Information Service, April 9, 1997). This pope dedicated himself and the whole world to Mary.

    The influential book The Glories of Mary by Alphonsus Mary de Liguori, a Catholic saint, calls Mary our Life, our Help, our Advocate, our Guardian, our Mediatress, our Salvation, and the Hope of Sinners. Chapter 5 says “Mary’s intercession is necessary for our salvation.” This book was tested 20 times by the rules of Pope Urban VIII and Pope Benedict XIV and was said to contain not “one word worthy of censure.” It was pronounced to be without error by Pope Pius VII and by Pope Leo XII. Pope John Paul II acknowledged Liguori’s influence in his own idolatrous affection for Mary. Liguori’s book continues to be published today with the imprimatur [Latin meaning “let it be printed”] of various Catholic authorities.

    MARY ON THE CROSS

    In the Church of the Mother of God of Polish Martyrs in Warsaw, Poland, Mary is depicted hanging on the cross holding the child Jesus.

    Outside of the main Mary basilica in Rome (Santa Maria Maggiore) there is a large crucifix with Jesus hanging on one side and a crowned Mary hanging on the other.

    This statue depicts Rome’s dogma that Mary is the co-redemptress with Christ and that she intercedes for men from Heaven and aids in their salvation.

    Note the following quotations from the Vatican II Council:

    “As St. Irenaeus says, she being obedient, became the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race. Hence not a few of the early Fathers gladly assert with him in their preaching ... ‘death through Eve, LIFE THROUGH MARY.’ This UNION OF THE MOTHER WITH THE SON IN THE WORK OF SALVATION is made manifest from the time of Christ’s virginal conception up to his death” (Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, chap. 8, II, 56, pp. 380-381).

    “Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but BY HER MANIFOLD INTERCESSION CONTINUES TO BRING US THE GIFTS OF ETERNAL SALVATION. By her maternal charity, she cares for the brethren of her Son, who still journey on earth surrounded by dangers and difficulties, until they are led into their blessed home. Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of ADVOCATE, HELPER, BENEFACTRESS, and MEDIATRIX” (Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, chap. 8, II, 62, pp. 382-383).

    A plaque in the Chapel of the Virgin of the Grace at Saints Vincent and Anastasius Church in Rome says, “Cardinal Benedetto Odescalchi, who became the pope with the name of Innocent XI, initiated THE WORSHIP OF THE IMAGE, placed on the altar in 1677, and wanted his heart to be buried here, not in the main chapel.”

    This is only one example of many that could be given of the term “worship” used in regard to Mary in Rome’s churches.

    MARY ADORED BY THE APOSTLES

    In the Church of the Mother of God of Polish Martyrs in Warsaw, Poland, Mary is also surrounded by the 12 apostles who are adoring her rather than Jesus Christ.

    MARY ON THE ARK OF THE COVENANT

    The Saint Stanislaus Kostka Catholic church in Chicago features an image of Mary on the very Ark of God. She is sitting above the Ark in the place that was occupied by God’s presence in the Tabernacle, and she is surrounded by adoring cherubim. This blasphemous image occupies the central altar where Mass is performed. The church’s official literature says that the image depicts the Catholic doctrines that Mary was immaculately conceived and sinless, that she participated in Christ’s suffering for mankind, and that she was bodily assumed into glory and crowned Queen of Heaven. The icon depicting Mary as the Ark of Mercy was dedicated in May 2008. Since then the church has been open 24 hours a day as an invitation for “pilgrims from all around the world to immerse themselves in the spring of grace, mercy, and power” that is supposedly flowing from the image.

    This is pure blasphemy. The Ark of the Covenant was located in the Holy of Holies in the Old Testament tabernacle and was the place where God’s presence dwelt (Exodus 25:22). Angels do not worship creatures (Acts 14:11-15; Rev. 19:10).

    Roman Catholic churches are filled with idols. Mary is reverenced with far greater fervency than Jesus. Every “evangelical” or “Baptist” or “Protestant” who has said positive things about Rome and who has participated in ecumenical relations with Rome or who has failed even to lift his voice against Rome’s gross heresies will answer to God for the refusal to “earnestly contend for the faith once delivered to the saints” (Jude 3) and for keeping silence in the face of evil.

    MARY QUEEN OF THE UNIVERSE

    The Roman Catholic Basilica of Mary, Queen of the Universe is located in Orlando, Florida, near Disney World. The basilica’s official brochure says it “emphasizes devotion to the Mother of God as one of the God-given gifts enabling us to reach that salvation for which Christ gave us His life on the cross.” Thus, according to this Catholic document Mary plays a role in salvation, which is a blasphemous lie. That Rome’s Mary is worshipped as queen of heaven is clear evidence that she is a Christianized pagan idol, for the only queen of heaven mentioned in the Bible is a goddess that the Jews were worshipping at the time of the destruction of the First Temple (Jeremiah 7:18; 44:17-25). The ancient mother-goddess worship, which began at Babel and spread throughout the world, was baptized by the Roman Catholic Church as the Madonna-Child.
    ________________________
    For photos of Mary on God’s throne, Mary the Queen of Peace, Mary hanging on the cross, Mary surrounded by the apostles, and Mary on the ark of the covenant see the following:
    www.wayoflife.org/database/maryolatry.html


     
  2. Thinkingstuff

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    It is often hard to have a descent discussion regarding Mary because often no matter what I say as to what is actually believed Non-Catholic opinion is already formed by subjective interpretation of what is seen. However, I will try to explain what each of those pictures actually portray and what they mean. And I will answer Bro. Cloud's assertion and incorrect portrayal of what he posted. First let me explain the pictoral and statue representation of Mary presented by Bro. Cloud. As in many issues representations and symbolism is often taken out of their context. For instance the Symbol of the United States the Flag has specific meaning. For my meaning consider the Blue Feild of Stars which the pictoral representation of Stars is identified with each current state joined in the union of States called the United States. Or the 13 stripes representing the 13 original colonies that unified against England in our revolutionary war. Even the color red represents the blood shed by soldiers of that Revolution. Americans don't worship stars however our flag holds symbolic significance calling to mind our unity, origin, and principles by which we live within the context of our democratic republic. Thus the statues and pictures represent are symbolic of specific meaning in each of these pictures none which replaces God with Mary. For instance the first picture. Mary being crowned by Jesus. Scripturally we know that those who do go to heaven will receive crowns (crowns of glory). Mary being the Mother of the Kings has a specific title called queen mother. Like Bathsheba was the queen mother of Solomon. That is a title specific to Kingdom and Kingdom rule. Bathsheba did not control Solomon's kingdom but she held a special place of honor in Solomon's administration. She is the Queen Mother. So it is that Mary the humble girl who allowed God to use her to bring about the incarnation holds a special place of honor as she is King Jesus' Queen Mother. Jesus told the sons of thunder that special places of Honor had already been determined by the Father so we also know there are special places of honor for those in heaven
    The next symbolic image is also being misconstrued. What is not known by Bro. Cloud and misrepresented in his article is that image is actually a Monstrance. Look carefully at the picture. He is correct that it represents the ark of the Covenant and we see the two Seraphim before it. Now it looks like mary is indeed on the mercy seat or the place of God. But that is only for someone not observant. Look more closely. You see a circle at the center of Mary and actually it is on the place where God should be. That Circle is the Eucharist what Catholics believe to be the Body of Christ. Without going another round whether or not the real presense of Jesus Christ is present in the communion bread. Suffice it to say that Catholics believe it is and therefore we can note that it is that Eucharist which is in the center of that symbolic representation. Also Note Mary is behind the Eucharist with her arms out as if presenting it. Therefore since we believe the Eucharist is the real presense it is Jesus who is God in the place of God and Mary is presenting it as once again God became incarnate through the Virgin Mary. She therefore is not being symbolized as God but presenting God in this monstrance. The next image is one of Madona and child. What Bro. Cloud misses is that Mary's eyes are directed downward and the child is directed at the people. Once again it is Jesus who is God and Mary the humble servant who by the way has an outstreached arm in prayer as if praying for the people present. Mary on the cross with the Child is also symbolic. It is not saying Mary died on the Cross but the cross symbolizes our redemption. Mary holding the child who would be crucified brings to mind the suffering or the pain that watching her son being crucified caused her as prophesied by the prophet simeon when he said
    again reminding the Catholic that Sin Caused the suffering and death of our very Lord and shouldn't be quickly overlooked. And the final symbolic image we notice on one side is Jesus crucified and the other mother and child which brings the same perspective I've just mentioned.

    Therefore we see this is all symbolism which purpose is to pictorally represent truths presented in the Gospel of our redemption. None of these were intended to suggest Catholics worship Mary as God. Catholics do not. Catholics do use symbolism to focus the viewer on certain points reflected in the gospel. Protestants use symbolism as well. WWJD bracelets or my favorite witnessing bracelets with different colors of beads indicating what aspect of salvation you are to share with someone else. Black means Sin is what separates us from God. We choose to disobey God. "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." Red means Jesus died on the cross and rose from the grave, paying the price and penalty for our sin. He provided the only way to God. White means When we become a Christian God cleanses us from all unrighteousness and washes us whiter than snow. Blue means One of our first acts of obedience is to publicly confess our faith through baptism. Green means We must now grow as a believer in all areas of our life. Looking at Jesus as our example. And yellow means: If we have accepted Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour, we have the promise of a home in heaven. These beads are no different that the pictoral representations or imagry focusing on the Lordship of Christ.
     
  3. KJVRICH

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    the irony of the explanation is....if the RCC obeyed the Bible in the first place,
    in regards to creating graven images, you wouldnt have to try and explain what you think all of the images mean.
     
  4. Gregory Perry Sr.

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    AMEN Brother

    Amen Bro.RICH....That was the biggest load of bunk I have read in 30 years. There is simply not one shred of scriptural justification for any of that. They just invent things as they go along to justify their idolatry. It is just tragic and sad that so many are in the bondage of that kind of dark deception. It truly does break my heart.:tear: We need to fervently pray that God would remove the blinders from their eyes that they might see. They are no less blinded than the religious Jews of our Lord's day. The hardest men to win always seem to be the most "religious". Bro.Cloud's decriptions of the things he was talking about are very straightforward. The Catholics DO elevate Mary far beyond anything that can be justified in the context of the scriptures.

    Bro.Greg
     
    #4 Gregory Perry Sr., Mar 28, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 28, 2013
  5. Thinkingstuff

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    What you are saying is like saying: If God didn't confuse the Jews when he said
    and then instructed them to by saying
    by following his own word Catholics wouldn't have an issue explaining their symbolism. Obviously creating images for revered objects isn't the issue.
     
  6. webdog

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    Now if you simply connect a command of God given to worship of Him to an extra biblical command of the church to worship...er..."adore" her, you might have a point.
     
  7. Thinkingstuff

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    So let me get this right you are saying scriptures don't say
    or
    or
    Are you also saying that the scriptures don't say
    maybe you are saying the scriptures don't say this
    What ever the case. There are scriptural references for what I said. It isn't bunk.
     
  8. Thinkingstuff

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    As we know there are many things not said in scriptures. For instance do you really need to be told that you should respect the mother of Jesus? Or should that be taken for granted that you would do that? The fact is people adore her not because she is Mary but because of her relationship to Jesus. Thus in scripture the bleeding woman only needed to touch Jesus Tzit tzit (hem of his garment) not because of the hem but because of having been on Jesus. Jesus is the focal point anything in relationship to him is respected.
     
  9. Revmitchell

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    No matter what way you spin it callin Mary Queen of the Universe is blaspemy. Putting Mary on the cross and calling her co-redemptress with Christ is blasphemy.

    Saying

    Is blasphemy. The catholic church has serious problems.
     
  10. Gregory Perry Sr.

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    Misinterpretations

    Thinkingstuff....you have been here for quite some time now so none of this stuff is new to either of us. You know what Baptists and Protestant Evangelicals believe and you KNOW that (if) we are true to what we believe the Bible actually teaches that we can never accept what the RCC teaches regardless of how you "spin" it. The sad thing is that many in our day are compromising what their forefathers bled and sometimes DIED for(many times at the hand of popery) in order to establish some sort of misplaced and misguided unbiblical "unity" with the so-called "Holy Mother Church". The God of the Holy Bible does NOT approve of the way the RCC exalts Mary....and neither would MARY herself.
    No less than ALL the EXALTATION that is found in the Word of God, both Old and New Testaments is aimed squarely at God the Father, GOD the SON, and God the Holy Spirit...and lastly the Word of God itself which God Himself declares in the entirety of the 119th Psalm and Psalm 138:2b that he has 'magnified ABOVE his own name. The RCC has always had a VERY low view of SCRIPTURE in comparison to the edicts and declarations of its "popes" and the heirarchy of its "councils". That is the testimony of all their actions and works since establishing themselves on the false foundation of Peter. Christ is the ONLY Rock and Captain of salvation for the true believers.

    Bro.Greg:saint:
     
  11. Gregory Perry Sr.

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    No Unkind Intentions....

    Thinkingstuff....at this juncture I just feel the need to express myself and say that sometimes, as these kind of discussions progress they always seem to veer onto a "pointy" or harsh type of tone. I mean you or your Catholic brethren on this board NO intentional unkindness. It is not YOU that any harsh tone may be directed against but rather the established doctrines or teachings of the RCC. Those things are worthy of evaluation just as the doctrinal foundations of any Baptist (or other) church may be as well. The benchmark must ALWAYS be the Word of God...not the traditions or dogmas of any group of elders or religious leaders...of any stripe.
    My friend..(and I hope you are) I don't want you to think me unkind, unloving, graciousless, without compassion. I want God's best for you and everyman...even some that have wronged me over the years. The love of God abides in my heart through and by His great mercy and grace that He has shown to me through Christ. The ONLY reason that I post or say the things that I do is because I genuinely believe the things that I do and that the church you have embraced and the pope who heads it have deceived you and millions of others. I mean you (personally)no harm or ill will. I pray that God will give you His Light. I know you believe you already have it. I just want you to know that inspite of the fact that I firmly believe what I have said too you it is not intended to sound arrogant. I acknowledge that I am what I am and believe what I do ONLY by God's MERCY and GRACE. If I come off as sounding arrogant in any way...please FORGIVE me.

    Bro.Greg:saint:
     
    #11 Gregory Perry Sr., Mar 28, 2013
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  12. Thinkingstuff

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    Yes.
    Yes.
    The fact is as I believe and have discovered over time is that there is 1) a lot of misinformation about what Catholics are supposed to believe and 2) that though I do believe protestants/evangelicals try very hard to live by what they think they believe the bible teaches. But it seems clear to me that the reality is that everyone comes at the bible from the glasses of their perception in the present context of what words mean. The only people who seem to want to get at the actual meaning of the text are textual critics. However, we see what happened to Bart Ehrman. But thats on him. However, I think it is rare indeed that people truelly take the text as it was ment in its orignal context and very few people study 2nd temple period liturature and the Jewish view of what the Apostles actually believed and acted. Most people read modern context into the 2,000 + year old document. Which becomes problematic in properly understanding the text. So though I believe Protestants/Evangelicals try to abide by what they read. What they read is no more than a rendering of scriptures from an already developed theology. Which is why one can read "you see we are justified by works and not by faith alone" and accertain that means we are justified by faith alone.

    two points to make Catholics as well as protestants have died for their faith. And the Protestants who did die by Catholic Hands did so by local governing authority and not by the Pope. And not necissarily with Papal approval.
    I call the Protestant University I graduated from my Alma Mater with is latin for nurturing Mother. Protestants come out of the Catholic Church in protest yet for a time it was their Alma Mater. Next All those who claim Christ should be unified as it is what Jesus Prayed for. And he prayed for it because he knew how disunified we can become.

    I disagree. He himself through his Holy Angel exalts Mary in scriptures. And in the Book of Revelation we see she's even crowned with stars.
    Mary always points to Christ and away from herself. For those Catholics who give improper attention to Mary I would agree she would point them to her son. However, don't under state the role which Mary played for through her God became incarnate into the world. He chose her as his mother. No greater honor can be given to any person I can imagine.

    No one disputes God is honored above all
    Entirely untrue. There is much documentation about the study of scripture in the catholic church and in all its decrees you see it referred to more frequently than any other document.
    Jesus named Simon Peter or Kephas and it was Jesus who built his church on his apostles whom Peter unites. Jesus Christ alone saves. That is the actual teaching. However baptist have their version of councils and the actual church councils if you had read any of them always refers to scripture.

    I respect your position. I sincerely believe that it is based on inaccuracies.
     
    #12 Thinkingstuff, Mar 28, 2013
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  13. Thinkingstuff

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    This is a discussion forum. And I appreciate the fact that I'm in the minority view here. As I have said many times had it not been for baptists I would never have developed a personal relationship with Jesus. Though I defend the Catholic faith in ernest I do get that all evangelicals do have one important thing right. Believe on Jesus who is the means of our salvation. That is the right Jesus as defined in the Trinity and is a hypostatic union unlike JW or Mormons. I also believe you must be born again. Nor do I believe evangelicals always get scriptures wrong. And I know you sincerely believe what you say about the Catholic faith is true. However, in my studies I have found many things that are "generally accepted" are not true with regard to the Catholic faith and my only intention is to clear it up. However, I also like non-Catholic discussions as I am wide read and like just about any topic on theology even ones I personally disagree with. I find it unfortunate, that I don't spend more time on those issues. I do appreciate that your intention is that I have Jesus as my savior so we can glorify him together in eternity. Thank you.

    No apology is necissary you haven't derided my character and I hope not to offend either though being on the defensive many times I find that I may not sound as charitable as I should. Forgive me for that.
     
  14. Thinkingstuff

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    Well, I wish you guys a happy Easter as we bring out the message of Allelujah Jesus is risen! I'm off to a foot washing it being Maundy Thurday and all.
     
  15. Walter

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    Not so! I am true to what the bible ACTUALLY teaches, and up until this Saturday night, I will have been a Baptist. Praise God I will be received into the Holy Catholic Church as a communicant! I have never been closer to the Lord Jesus as I am now that I worship in the Church He establshed! TS was a Baptist for many years and studied the actual teachings of the Catholic Church and concluded that it IS biblical Christianity. The Catholic Church has NEVER had a 'a low view of history', that is a lie. The Liturgy of the Word and the preaching of the word take up the first half of every Eucharist, ALWAYS! You simply don't know what you are talking about.
     
    #15 Walter, Mar 28, 2013
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  16. Walter

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    Have a wonderful Triduum, TS. God bless you and your family!
     
  17. DHK

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    As you claim to have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, which comes through the act of being born again, and that supported by your belief that evangelicals do not always get scriptures wrong, you must at least believe that the evangelicals were right on this doctrine here.
    But it is on this doctrine, perhaps the most important of all, that the RCC differs.

    If you trusted Christ as your Savior it was an event, not a process.
    If it was a process it was by faith alone, not faith plus works. Works continue.
    If you believe you were born again then you would not believe that baptism saves, for baptism has not part in regeneration (the new birth). Salvation is all of God. "Born of water and of the Spirit" has nothing to do with baptism as the RCC declares, and thus the heretical doctrine of baptismal regeneration, and consequent doctrine of infant baptism, both of which the Bible does not teach. Baptism always follows "faith in Christ."

    I trust you have a personal relationship with Christ. But if that trust is in baptism plus Christ it is not a personal relationship with Christ, but trust in baptism or works. It is not a new birth, but a trust in baptism or works. Having a personal relationship in Christ means to trust Him and Him alone for the salvation of your soul, which again leads to salvation by faith and faith alone, in spite of your interpretation of James 2.
     
  18. KJVRICH

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    a low view of scripture is what was posted, not low view of history.
    it is not a lie, simply his opinion, most likely based on the fact that the catechism states that scripture, and traditions of men are equal.
     
  19. Yeshua1

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    there is NOTHING in the Bible that accords to her what rome teaches!

    She was a Virgin until birth of jesus, then had natural children with Joseph...

    She was conceived/born as a sinner, jesus was her saviour

    She is NOT mediating for us before God, ONLY Jesus can and does that!

    she died and stay buried, ONLY Jesus was raised up...

    jesus sits with the Father upon the throne, co ruler, NOT mary!

    she has NO intercessionary business with the living, nor any extra grace to confer, ONLY Jesus can and does that!

    She was a devout and beloved woman, mother of jesus, but NOT the blashemy version portrayed by the RCC!
     
  20. Walter

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    Another fabrication. Show me where the catechism states 'traditions of men' is equal to scripture. You know 'traditions of men' is found in scripture, but saying the catechism claims that same 'traditions of men' reference is and scripture are equal is just not true. And actually, I think you know this. Your trying to be slick. It's THIS very kind of statement that keeps perpetuating the l misrepresentation on this board that TS was talking about.
     

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