Russia Annexing Crimea is the Cost of U.S.-EU intervention in Ukraine

Discussion in 'Politics' started by poncho, Mar 14, 2014.

  1. poncho

    poncho
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    One wonders how deep a hole the United States and the EU are going to dig for themselves in Ukraine. It was, of course, U.S. and EU leaders — and their media acolytes — who caused the problem we face today by intervening on behalf of self-styled “democrats” in Kiev who without foreign intervention could not have overthrown the Ukrainian president. It is getting to be that any half-baked gaggle of protestors at any location on the planet need only to chant the word “democracy” and the West will come running to their aid with diplomatic assistance, money, and a fierce disregard for either the target nation’s sovereignty or regional stability. Indeed, it may well be that the whole Ukraine protest movement was primed for action by funds, advisers, and computer systems paid for by Hillary Clinton’s State Department in a program similar to those she ran in several Arab countries.

    http://www.lewrockwell.com/2014/03/michael-scheuer/russia-annexing-crimea/
     
  2. robt.k.fall

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    Poncho, Ukrainian sovereignty over Crimea is the result of various international treaties and the old Soviet transfer of the territory from the Russian SSR to the old Ukrainian SSR. I still don't understand why you're so adamant about bowing to the Kremlin on this matter.

    Moscow simply won't let Kiev build any ties to the West. It views any trade agreement Ukrainian\EU\US trade agreements as hostile acts towards Mother Russia.

    Further, for all your hostility towards what you consider to be US imperialism, you're willing to give the Russians a free pass. Even though Ukraine has not shown the least bit of military hostility towards Russia. Cultural and political is another question for another thread. But, your support of the Kremlin's excuse of protecting "ethnic Russians" shows you are ignoring the premises insidious nature.
     
  3. Revmitchell

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    You know before people write articles like this they need to have their facts straight.And that is right, if they want our help in being free we will come running if we can. And we should.
     
  4. thisnumbersdisconnected

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    In the words of a very wise man on this board:

    "Why do you keep feeding that thing?" :laugh:
     
  5. Revmitchell

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    I don't know. Every once in a while he says something extra stupid.
     
  6. Baptist in Richmond

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    Have you ever seen the documentary The Fog of War?
    The first lesson Robert McNamara learned is to empathize with your enemy. We had the same reaction with Cuba in 1962.

    Notice that I am not condoning/condemning what Russia is doing. I am simply noting that their reaction was not unexpected, and not unlike our reaction in a similar situation. The government that was overthrown was an elected government. Exactly who is supporting those people who have reversed the democratic process?

    I don't know the answer and I am certainly not holding myself out as an expert on Russian/Ukrainian relations. I do, however, see my government ready to give out yet more money in aid - money that we simply do not have.....

    Regards,
    BiR
     
  7. poncho

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    I don't understand why your so adamant to bowing to neo nazis on this matter but then I never did understand why anyone would adopt the mainstream consensus and talking points without question so quickly. I mean it's not like Washington lies and the corporate media repeats them ad infinitum or anything.

    I can tell already that once you've adopted a talking point you won't let go of it. Best for you to understand this in the beginning so get this straight. I don't take sides in all this. I don't play the leftie vs rightie game. Patriotism for me is defending the constitution our founding principles the country and it's people not following a flag or a leader or adopting the latest made for TV talking points.

    For me it's all about right vs wrong. Okay. I'm not siding with the Kremlin. I'm all about what's best for the people in this country and meddling in the internal affairs of every country on earth is not in our best interests. I do not make the common mistake of confusing the global elite's interests with those of the people of these United States. Apparently you still do.

    That's because they are. Anytime the EU, US and IMF get involved with another country it's a hostile act. Liken it to a hostile corporate take over because that is exactly what it is!

    Go look at what's happened to every country the US, EU and IMF has "rescued".

    Crushing debt, austerity, mass unemployment, lower wages, higher taxes, and civil unrest. This is the type of help you're wishing on the Ukrainians. So what have they done to you that you'd wish this on them?

    In a word bull. Let me remind you of how it is because you seem to be missing one very important aspect here. The politicians that make up the US government are about as inept, corrupt and servile to the corporate elite that really runs things as they can get.

    This current crop of politicos in Washington couldn't form a plan for imperial expansion or execute it if their lives depended on it. Only a complete dolt would believe they can do anything other than beg the corporate elite for campaign contributions to keep their political careers going and screw up every thing they touch at this point. Any plans they put forward all come from the central planners in all the corporate funded think tanks. AKA the guys that the big banks and multinational corporations employ.

    C'mon get real the politicians in Washington are bought and paid for puppets of the global elite. It's a wonder any of them can find the capitol building let alone plan an imperial expansion. :laugh:

    There's that talking point again.

    All of your posts thus far addressed to me shows that you are ignoring the insidious nature of the people that really rule the US and the EU.

    Matter of fact you've shown you don't even know who does really rule the US and the EU.

    Hint: It ain't the babbling idiots in Washington DC or the parliaments in Europe who have allowed the global central bankers to turn their people into hopeless debt slaves.


    Did US Secretary of State John Kerry ask you before he delivered an all or nothing ultimatum to Russia? Did he ask Congress? Did he ask the countries of western and eastern Europe–NATO members who Kerry has committed to whatever the consequences will be of Washington’s inflexible, arrogant, aggressive provocation of Russia, a well-armed nuclear power? Did Kerry ask Japan, Taiwan, South Korea, New Zealand, Australia, Canada, Mexico, South America, Africa, China, Central Asia, all of whom would be adversely affected by a world war provoked by the crazed criminals in Washington?


    http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2014/03/14/world-war-1-paul-craig-roberts/
     
    #7 poncho, Mar 15, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 15, 2014
  8. kyredneck

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    Agree, Putin's doing as we would do, which is exactly the gist of this article. I believe 'The West' missed the boat with Putin (and Russia) by moving too fast, and apparently breaking some promises/assurances that Putin took very seriously, and refused to take him seriously when he protested:

    Paranoia leads Vladimir Putin to the point of no return

    The Russian leader’s personal insecurity will ensure that Crimea falls under his control

    "The second factor is Russia’s strategic security. And here I believe the West made a major mistake in believing it could build its own security at the expense of Russia’s. It has created a situation in which Moscow feels not just marginalised but threatened. Putin came to power longing to have Russia accepted again as a great power, but as an ally, whose word mattered. He thought he was getting somewhere when George W Bush gratefully accepted his help in the “war on terror”. But then America deployed a missile shield that Putin believes undermines Russia’s strategic deterrent, and Nato expanded into eastern Europe, despite earlier assurances that this would not happen. Putin felt humiliated. Tragically, he really thought he could be the West’s friend, failing to see that his own repressive policies made that impossible.

    Crucially, in 2008, Nato promised Ukraine that it “will” be allowed to join. Even then Putin made clear that this would be the last straw. Perhaps Nato should have considered his psychology more deeply. You don’t ensure your safety from a growling bear by provoking it.

    I believe Putin sees Ukraine’s decisive turn to the West now as inexorably leading to the Nato membership it was promised. This would further isolate Russia, bring a hostile alliance right up to its borders, and place its only warm-water naval base in enemy hands. Hence the scramble to get Crimea out of Ukraine as soon as possible – using every lie and pretext in Putin’s well-thumbed dezinformatsiya handbook to justify Russia’s annexation...."
     
  9. Squire Robertsson

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    What has Washington and the West done that legitimates the annexation by military force by Russia of the Crimea?
    You yammer about the removal of the "elected government" by the mass of protesters. As far as I know, the duly elected Ukrainian Parliament is still meeting and is still on the job. And the former President's party and its allies still have their seats and are an active part of the assembly.

    What did happen is the everything but the name impeachment of the President who Putin had in his hip pocket by the Parliament.
     
  10. poncho

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    All that aside, what is facing us now—the possibility of a new and more dangerous Cold War, a state in Western Ukraine run, in part, by fascists, and the takeover of Eastern Ukraine—whether de facto or de jure—by Russia came about all because the duly elected (and yes, yes, thoroughly corrupt) president of Ukraine decided to pick one bailout package over another. The package he picked, Russia’s, he knew would spare the country a wave of mass unemployment similar to the one that hit Russia two decades ago after it accepted the conditions of an IMF/Clinton-era Treasury bailout.

    The American media narrative suggests that the Maidan putsch was justified on the grounds that the aspirations of the Ukrainian people were dashed by Yanukovych’s decision to decline a trade deal with the EU at the Vilnius Summit in November; Yanukovych was corrupt; and Yanukovych ordered the shooting of protesters in Maidan.

    Wholly neglected by both the American media and by statements emanating out of the State Department is any semblance of concern for the aspirations of the people of eastern and southern Ukraine who—as we are seeing in Crimea right now—most emphatically do not see the overthrow of their democratically elected president by radicals in Kiev as something to be celebrated. The fact that the next presidential election was scheduled to take place 12 months from now rarely gets a mention, as does the fact that the quasi-fascist Svoboda Party now has in its control the deputy premiership, three ministries, and the prosecutor general’s office.

    http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/what-obama-didnt-say-about-ukraine/
     
  11. poncho

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    Russia allows Ukrainian surveillance flight to confirm no troops near border

    In a confidence-building step, Russia’s Defense Ministry has given permission for a surveillance flight by Ukraine over Russian territory near the border between the countries. Kiev had claimed Moscow was building up its military presence there.

    “The Ukrainians have asked for an unscheduled observation flight over our territory,” Deputy Defense Minister Anatoly Antonov told reporters in Moscow.

    Russia and Ukraine are entitled to surveillance flights over each other's territories following the Open Skies treaty signed in 1992, but Antonov said that Kiev had never asked for one before, and that Moscow was "under no obligation" to allow it immediately.

    “We have decided to allow such a flight. We hope that our neighbors are assured that there is no military activity that threatens them on the border.”

    Antonov vehemently denied a statement Tuesday by Igor Tenyukh, defense minister for the Kiev coup-appointed government, that Russia had amassed more than 220,000 troops, 1,800 tanks and over 400 helicopters in regions adjacent to eastern Ukraine.

    “Ukrainian military officials know full well that the entire [Russian] Southern and Western Military Districts put together don’t have that much equipment. The only way you could arrive at that number of soldiers would be if you counted their families,” Antonov said.

    "I would dissuade Mr Tenyukh from adding fuel to the fire of the crisis, which is what he appears to be doing. He openly outlined the reasons for this himself, when he asked the Ukrainian parliament to issue him with more funding," continued the Russian official.

    http://rt.com/news/russia-allows-flight-ukraine-374/
     
  12. poncho

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    More later . . .
     
  13. poncho

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    McCain, Durbin Demand U.S. Arm Junta Government in Ukraine

    High turn out for referendum to decide if Crimea will be absorbed by Russia

    Republican Senator John McCain and his Democrat counterpart Senator Dick Durbin are demanding Obama send weapons to the coup in Kyiv.

    McCain headed up a bipartisan delegation of senators who traveled to Ukraine’s capitol to show support for the junta government that overthrew the country’s elected president last month. In addition to McCain and Durbin, the group includes John Barrasso (R-WY), Jeff Flake (R-AZ), Ron Johnson (R-WI), Christopher Murphy (D-CT), John Hoeven (R-ND), and Sheldon Whitehouse (D-RI).

    < snip >

    60% of Crimea is Russian. On Sunday a referendum deciding if Crimea should become part of Russia or remain in Ukraine under autonomy was held. Around 1.5 million people are expected to turn out for the vote. Nearly 45 percent of Crimean residents – over 670,000 people – had taken part in the vote by noon, according to the head of the Crimean parliament’s commission on the referendum, Mikhail Malyshev.

    Coup Prime Minister Arseny Yatseniuk has vowed to hunt down, arrest, and put on trial those promoting “separatism and division” in Crimea. “The Ukrainian state will find all those ringleaders of separatism and division who now, under the cover of Russian troops, are trying to destroy Ukrainian independence,” he told a cabinet meeting as Crimeans went to the polls and voted on the referendum.

    “We will find all of them — if it takes one year, two years — and bring them to justice and try them in Ukrainian and international courts. The ground will burn beneath their feet.”

    http://www.prisonplanet.com/mccain-durbin-demand-u-s-arm-junta-government-in-ukraine.html

    John McCain sure knows how to pick em doesn't he? No wonder he's usually at the top of the list when it comes to getting campaign money from the military industrial complex he's one of it's best salesmen! The guy never gets tired of moving their products for them.

    Crimea 'votes to rejoin Russia' after controversial poll

    Almost the entire Crimean electorate today voted for the peninsula to become part of Russia, although the referendum was widely dismissed by the international community.

    With over half the votes counted, election officials have said that over 95% of voters backed leaving the Ukraine.

    ITV News Europe Editor James Mates reports on today's events.

    http://www.itv.com/news/2014-03-16/crimea-votes-to-rejoin-russia-after-controversial-poll/

    "although the referendum was widely dismissed by the international community" Apparently democracy is only legit if it works in favor of the "international community".
     
    #13 poncho, Mar 16, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 16, 2014
  14. poncho

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    The Battle for Ukraine Was Planned in 1997 … Or Earlier

    Neoconservatives planned regime change throughout the Middle East and North Africa 20 years ago. Robert Parry correctly points out that the Neocons have successfully “weathered the storm” of disdain after their Iraq war fiasco.

    But the truth is that Obama has long done his best to try to implement those Neocon plans.

    Similarly, ever since the Soviet Union collapsed in 1991, the U.S. has pursued a strategy of encircling Russia, just as it has with other perceived enemies like China and Iran.

    In 1997, Obama’s former foreign affairs adviser, and president Jimmy Carter’s national security adviser – Zbigniew Brzezinski – wrote a book called The Grand Chessboard arguing arguing that the U.S. had to take control of Ukraine (as well as Azerbaijan, South Korea, Turkey and Iran) because they were “critically important geopolitical pivots”.

    Regarding Ukraine, Brzezinski said (hat tip Chris Ernesto):

    Ukraine, a new and important space on the Eurasian chessboard, is a geopolitical pivot because its very existence as an independent country helps to transform Russia. Without Ukraine, Russia ceases to be a Eurasian empire.

    However, if Moscow regains control over Ukraine, with its 52 million people and major resources as well as access to the Black Sea, Russia automatically again regains the wherewithal to become a powerful imperial state, spanning Europe and Asia.

    And now Obama is pushing us into a confrontation with Russia over Ukraine and the Crimea.

    As Ernesto notes:

    http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2014/03/president-obamas-former-foreign-policy-adviser-said-1997-u-s-gain-control-ukraine.html

    Understanding Brzezinski’s long-term view of Ukraine makes it easier to comprehend why the US has given $5 billion to Ukraine since 1991, and why today it is hyper-concerned about having Ukraine remain in its sphere of influence.

    It may also help explain why in the past year the US and many of its media outlets have feverishly demonized Vladimir Putin.

    By prominently highlighting the mistreatment of activist group Pussy Riot, incessantly condemning Russia’s regressive position on gay rights, and excessively focusing on substandard accommodations at the Sochi Olympic Games, the Obama administration has cleverly distracted the public from delving into US support of the ultra-nationalist, neo-Nazi factions of the Ukrainian opposition, and has made it palatable for Americans to accept the US narrative on Ukraine.

    Interestingly enough, it was Brzezinski who first compared Putin to Hitler in a March 3 Washington Post Editorial. Hillary Clinton followed-up the next day with her comments comparing the two, followed by John McCain and Marco Rubio who on March 5 agreed with Clinton’s comments comparing Putin and Hitler. Apparently Brzezinski still continues to influence US political speak.

    http://original.antiwar.com/Chris_Ernesto/2014/03/14/brzezinski-mapped-out-the-battle-for-ukraine-in-1997/

    From Iraq to Ukraine: A Pattern of Disaster the War Party’s record is no hits, all errors.

    Eleven years ago this week the United States invaded Iraq – an event the late General William E. Odom rightly called the biggest strategic disaster in US military history. The decade since that catastrophe proves one thing about US policymakers: they’ve changed their tactics without learning a thing.

    < snip >

    Quite aside from that, however, I thought I would never live to see the day when the US State Department whitewashed the neo-Nazi views and heritage of a gang of thugs who had seized power in a violent coup d’etat.

    In Iraq, Libya, and Syria, US policymakers empowered radical Islamists of one sort or another. That was bad enough. Today, however, in Ukraine they are empowering the heirs of Adolf Hitler.

    How is this not a scandal?

    http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2014/03/16/from-iraq-to-ukraine-a-pattern-of-disaster/
     
    #14 poncho, Mar 17, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 17, 2014
  15. poncho

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    NATO's "Mystery Gunmen" Seek to Strengthen Kiev Regime's Hand

    March 20, 2014 (Tony Cartalucci-NEO) - In yet another attempt to widen the confrontation between Russia, Crimea, and the Western-backed regime in Kiev, snipers have opened fire on both Ukrainian and Crimean defense forces at a small military base within the heart of the Crimean peninsula, the administrative city of Simferopol.

    The BBC immediately penned a report titled, "Ukraine officer 'killed in attack on Crimea base'," citing the regime in Kiev's official statements which included Ukrainian Defense Ministry spokesman Vladislav Seleznyov admitting the attack was carried out by "unknown forces, fully equipped and their faces covered." Despite absolutely no confirmation over the identity of the attackers, the Kiev regime, headed by self-appointed Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk, claimed:

    "The conflict is shifting from a political to a military stage. Russian soldiers have started shooting at Ukrainian military servicemen and that is a war crime."

    Yatsenyuk's rushed and hamhanded political exploitation of an admittedly ambiguous attack carried out by unidentified gunmen exposes both the likely party behind the violence, and the most likely motivation for carrying out the fatal attack.

    One must wonder what Yatsenyuk's regime in Kiev has to gain by jumping to conclusions, thus stoking tensions that will inevitably lead to a military confrontation with Russia - a confrontation his regime has no hope of winning. To answer that question, Ian Bremmer's TIME Magazine piece, "It's Time to Look Beyond Crimea: The U.S. and Europe need to focus on supporting the fragile new government in Kiev," offers some clues.

    Military Confrontation Opens Doors to Otherwise Unjustified Material Support

    "Supporting the fragile new government in Kiev," is first and foremost among the priorities of the US and EU in Ukraine. Bremmer is kind in calling what resides in Kiev a "government," considering it was not elected, and instead seized power violently.

    The US and EU's support of the regime in Kiev is also problematic, though Bremmer refuses to address the complications which include the self-proclaimed Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk being a documented bigot and a member of the Hiteresque "Fatherland Party," and the fact that the ruling regime is buttressed by a network of ultra-right wing parties including the anti-Semitic, homophobic, and anti-Russian Svoboda Party, and even further to its right, its armed affiliate "Right Sector."

    Despite this, Bremmer of the "Eurasia Group" - a partner of notorious corporate tax evasion facilitator PricewaterhouseCoopers, claims:

    Read More At: http://landdestroyer.blogspot.fr/2014/03/natos-mystery-gunmen-seek-to-strengthen.html
     
    #15 poncho, Mar 20, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 20, 2014
  16. OldRegular

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    Crimea, then Eastern Ukraine, then all of Ukraine, then who knows. Depends on how flexible Obama is!
     
  17. poncho

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    So far I've seen everyone saying stuff like this latch onto every unverified claim made by the people that violently overthrew the (like it or not) elected Ukrainian government without question.

    Tell me OR why are so many people here so quick to make judgements about what's going on over there based only on what the people who have a vested interest in gaining monetary and military support from Washington and the EU claim?

    Has it really got to the point where Americans will just accept what "rebels" claim without verification of any kind?


    Earlier this month US President Barack Obama signed an executive order declaring “a national emergency” in view of the “actions and policies of persons — including persons who have asserted governmental authority in the Crimean region without the authorization of the Government of Ukraine – that undermine democratic processes and institutions in Ukraine; threaten its peace, security, stability, sovereignty, and territorial integrity.” This order blocks all property and interests in the United States that belong to individuals under sanction, suspends entry into the United States, as immigrants or non-immigrants, of such persons, prohibits any type of donations to or benefitting such persons, and even forbids “any conspiracy formed to violate any of the prohibitions set forth in this order.” Section 10 of the order eliminates the possibility of challenging these sanctions in any court:

    “This order is not intended to, and does not, create any right or benefit, substantive or procedural, enforceable at law or in equity by any party against the United States, its departments, agencies, or entities, its officers, employees, or agents, or any other person.”

    Thus, the US president has essentially authorized the extrajudicial expropriation of any foreign-owned property located within the territory of the United States. This executive order is unprecedented. Never before has the United States introduced sanctions against individuals who have peacefully exercised their right to self-determination, as vested in them by the 1966 International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights: “All peoples have the right of self-determination. By virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development.” Ironically, in July 2009 the United States officially stated in a reference to the unilateral declaration of independence of Kosovo: “The legal principle of territorial integrity does not prevent non-state entities from peacefully declaring its independence.”


    Read More At: http://www.globalresearch.ca/washington-sanctioning-democracy-and-hailing-nazism/5374474
     
    #17 poncho, Mar 20, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 20, 2014
  18. poncho

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    Ukraine and the Clinton-Pinchuk Connection. Reeping the Spoils of Regime Change

    At the table in Kiev where the formal agreement between the government, the opposition, the European Union and Russia was negotiated, there officially sat no representative of the powerful international oligarchy which – with closer ties to Washington and NATO than to Brussels and the EU – is pushing Ukraine towards the West. An emblematic case is Viktor Pinchuk, steel magnate, 54, ranked by Forbes Magazine among the richest men in the world.

    Pinchuk started amassing his fortune in 2002 when he married Elena, daughter of Leonid Kuchma, the second President of Ukraine (1994-2005). In 2004 his illustrious father-in-law privatized Kryvorizhstal, the largest steel plant in Ukraine, by selling it to the Interpipe Group, co-owned by his son-in-law, for USD 800 million, about one sixth of its real value. Interpipe thus gained monopoly power over steel pipe production. In 2007, Pinchuk founded EastOne Group Ltd., an international investment advisory company, which provides to multinationals all the tools for penetrating the economies of the East. At the same time, he became the owner of four TV channels plus a popular tabloid (Facts and Comments) with a circulation topping one million copies. Without however neglecting charity, he created the Viktor Pinchuk Foundation, said to be the largest private Ukrainian « philanthropic organization. »

    It is through this foundation that Pinchuk bonded with the Clintons, by supporting the Clinton Global Initiative established in 2005 by Bill and Hillary, whose mission is to “convene global leaders to create and implement innovative solutions to the world’s most pressing challenges.” Behind this shimmering slogan lies the real goal: to create a strong international support network for Hillary Clinton, the former first lady who, after serving as New York Senator in 2001-2009 and Secretary of State in 2009-2013, is undertaking her second climb to the presidency.

    Read More At: http://www.globalresearch.ca/ukraine-and-the-clinton-pinchuk-connection-reeping-the-spoils-of-regime-change/5374627

    Gee looks like I'm about the only one here not supporting Bill And Hillary Clinton and their international "firends" network. And for that I get called a communist sympathizer?

    Man oh man by not taking the "knee jerk" route and blindly choosing to side with neo nazis in Ukraine I get called a communist sympathizer by people that are not only siding with neo nazis but Bill and Hillary Clinton and their international friends network too! This is just to rich. :laugh:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzlG28B-R8Y
     
    #18 poncho, Mar 20, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 20, 2014

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