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Sabbath "Remains" for the People of God Heb 4

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by BobRyan, Jul 10, 2005.

  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    But of course that probably leaves you wondering if Christ the Creator was serious when He "sanctified" His Holy day to be set apart -- from the very start of creation mankind.


    Indeed some have argued that these saints under persecution keeping God’s commandments are a select few – and not really the larger group – of all Christians – in God’s planning. Is that true?

    Isaiah 66 makes it clear regarding the “New Heavens and New Earth” also identified in Rev 20 -- “From Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL Mankind come before Me to Worship”

    How can Christ the Creator call for ALL mankind to honor Sabbath as a day of Worship like that in the New Earth? Surely the Sabbath will NOT be for all mankind since in fact it WAS only for the Jews – correct?

    Christ the Creator addresses the point head-on

    “The Sabbath WAS MADE for Mankind” Mark 2:27

    From the very “making” of Christ the Creator’s Holy Day – it was “made for Mankind”

    Ok – so “when did Christ the Creator MAKE it?”

    Notice - Christ the Creator gave mankind the 7-day week in Gen 2:3. For it was ” Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made”. A 7-day week - not a 6-day week for mankind. Christ the Creator makes his holy 7th day memorial of His creative action in making mankind – “for mankind” when he MAKES it “holy” – sanctified in Gen 2:3 before the fall of mankind.

    When God speaks directly to His people in Exodus 20 and summarizes that same Gen 1-2:3 event notice what Christ the Creator says of His own Holy day – Made Holy at HIS making of this planet and life on this planet – and mankind.

    Exodus 20:8-11 summary of the Creation week "event" shows it to have been made holy, sanctified and blessed by virtue of God’s own act of resting – that “alone” is given as the basis for the command. The commandment is in the format “Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy…For in Six days God…. Therefore He Blessed, sanctified and made holy the Seventh day”.

    Here it is in full as – God framed it at Sinai speaking directly to the People of God, He said

     
  2. yeshua4me2

    yeshua4me2 New Member

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    looks like those verses say the sabbath is for rest, not for church. In america, and most of the western world the average person works 5 (4 in france) days a week, and has a day for rest and a day for Worship (church). perhaps we do keep the sabbath without even knowing it.lol

    But that is not the point, the law (10 commands) was given to show forth our sinfulness, not our righteousness. which is what your doing, Jews had the same problem. they thought by "keeping the law" they were righteous, rather than using the Law lawfully, to show sin.

    Jesus showed the proper use of the law when a person is stuck in self righteousness.

    Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
    Mat 19:18 He saith unto him, WHICH? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
    Mat 19:19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
    Mat 19:20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
    Mat 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
    Mat 19:22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.

    no sabbath though.


    the point of this story is that the man HAD NOT kept the commandments like he had said. he was in violation the 2nd commandment, as his riches had become his god, and he was not willing to stop serving them. He had not kept the commandments is the point of the story, not that keeping the commandments get you into heaven, or that it has anything to do with heaven, in fact the commandment have to do with hell, and the reasons why one is sent there, not the reasons why people enter heaven.

    thankyou and God Bless
     
  3. yeshua4me2

    yeshua4me2 New Member

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    and I have 85 questions for you:

    1. If every man from Adam to Moses kept the Sabbath, why is the Hebrew word for the weekly Sabbath found in the ten commandments, never found in the book of Genesis? Why is no one before Moses ever being told to keep the Sabbath. Why are there no examples of anyone keeping the Sabbath?
    2. Why were the Patriarchs never instructed about he Sabbath, but were instructed regarding: offerings: Gen 4:3-4, Altars Gen 8:20, Priests: Gen 14:18, Tithes: Gen 14:20, Circumcision: Gen 17:10, Marriage: Gen 2:24 & Gen 34:9. Why would God leave out the "all important" Sabbath command?
    3. If the fact that God wrote the 10 commandments on stone proves they are forever, then whatever happened to the two stone tablets that God gave Adam at the beginning of time? Why is Moses the first one to see a stone tablet written by the finger of God?
    4. Why is the weekly Sabbath commandment never quoted in the New Testament?
    5. Why is the Sabbath the only one of the ten commandments that are said to be "throughout your generations", the usual phrase that indicates it was a temporary ceremonial law only for the Jews?
    6. Why is there no example of exclusively Christians coming together on the Sabbath day as a church or prayer meeting after the resurrection of Christ?
    7. Why is there no command in the New Testament for Christians to keep the Sabbath holy?
    8. While Paul taught in the synagogues up to 84 times, why does the Bible never say he kept the sabbath?
    9. If Paul’s action of preaching to non-believers 84 times in the book of Acts on the Sabbath make him a Sabbath keeper, is a Seventh-day Adventist pastor a Sunday keeper if we invite him for 84 Sundays in a row to teach us about God’s word?
    10. How could Adam, Noah and Abraham keep the Sabbath, when Deuteronomy 5:2-4 says that the 10 commandment covenant (see was "not made with any of the fathers of Israel who lived before Moses."
    11. If we must follow the example of Jesus in all things like keeping the Sabbath, then why do Sabbatarians not follow the example of Jesus in circumcision, animal sacrifices and keeping Passover?
    12. If the Sabbath was for Gentiles and Adam, Noah and Abraham, then why is the Sabbath a sign to remind their exodus from Egypt? Exodus 16:23,29; 31:13-18. Were either Abraham or Seventh-day Adventists ever slaves in Egypt?
    13. If the Sabbath law is still in force, then why do they not stone their own members when they break the Sabbath as the law said?
    14. Ellen G. White, who is considered inspired by Seventh-day Adventists, said that the Pope changed the Sabbath in about 321 AD. Why do all Adventists today reject their inspired prophet and say the change of the Sabbath occurred in about 140 AD? If White was wrong about this, was she wrong when she traveled to heaven and saw the 4th commandment glowing brighter than all the rest?
    15. If the current position of the Seventh-day Adventist church is that the change from Saturday to Sunday took place in 140 AD, doesn’t that mean that they have come a long way from Whites 325 AD and have only 40 more years to travel to reach the truth of the Apostolic age?
    16. If the change from Saturday to Sunday happened, why is there absolutely no discussion of this change of actual day for the first 600 years of church history. Merely calling Sunday the Sabbath doesn’t count!
    17. If Sabbatarians reject White’s inspiration, that Constantine change the Sabbath day to Sunday, why do they keep bringing Constantine up as proof? If Constantine changed the Sabbath to Sunday, why does here merely legislate that work must stop on Sunday with no actual mention of the day being moved?
    18. If the first/old covenant was abolished according to Heb 8:13 and the Ten commandment law was that first covenant (Ex 34:27-28; 1 Kings 8:9,21; Heb 9:1-4), then why do Sabbatarians want to keep the first/old covenant?
    19. Why is the universal record of history (75-500AD) 100% in unanimous agreement that Christians never kept the Sabbath (7th day) and have always worshipped on Sunday?
    20. Why is the universal record of history (75-500AD) 100% in unanimous agreement that Christians ate the Lord’s Supper every Sunday in the tradition of Acts 20:7?
    21. Why is the universal record of history (75-500AD) 100% in unanimous agreement that Christians always called Sunday the Lord’s Day because, they said, this was the day Jesus rose from the dead?
    22. Why has no Sabbatarian every produced even one historical quote (75-500AD) that says Christians kept the Sabbath?
    23. If the Sabbath is not a ceremonial law, then why is it lumped into the same identical class of "holy convocations" as the rest of the Jewish feast days? Lev 23:2; Ex 20:9; 31:17
    24. If the 10 commandments remain but the book of law was abolished, then why did God put two copies of the 10 commandments in the book of the law? Ex 20; Deut 5
    25. How can there possibly be an difference between "the law of God" and the "Law of Moses" when God gave the Law of Moses (Ezra 7:6; Neh 8:1) and Moses gave the Law of God (Neh 10:29; 2 Chron 34:14)?
    26. If there is a distinction between the moral and ceremonial laws, why are the Jewish feast days called part of the Law of the Lord? (2 Chron 331:3)
    27. If there is a distinction between the moral and ceremonial laws, why in a single chapter of Nehemiah 8are the following phrases all used interchangeably: "book of the law of Moses" v1, "the law" v2, "book of the law" v3, "the law of god" v8, "book of the law of god" v18?
    28. Why are the two most important commandments contained within the "ceremonial law of Moses that was Sabbatarians say was nailed to the cross? (Matthew 22:36-40)
    29. Why did Jesus say Moses gave the 10 commandment law: "Thou shalt not kill" in Jn 7:19?
    30. If the Sabbath cannot change, because God cannot change (Mal 3:6) then what about all the other feast days and laws that changed? Heb 7:12. And why did Jesus give a "a new commandment" in John 13:34?
    31. If the ten commandments are going to be in heaven, what is the use of "thou shalt not commit adultery", if there is no marriage in heaven? Lk 20:34-35
    32. If the Sabbath was given to all men, why were Gentiles called "strangers". Why were Gentiles outside the gates not required to keep the Sabbath? Ex 20:10.
    33. How could the Sabbath be a sign between God and Israel, if all nations were expected to keep it? Ex 31:17
    34. Why did God send the Jews into Babylonian Captivity for breaking the Sabbath, but never ever criticized any Gentiles for never keeping the Sabbath?
    35. Why did God often criticize the Gentiles via the prophets for moral violations, but never for not keeping the Sabbath?
    36. If the Gentiles were supposed to keep the Sabbath, why are they called "strangers of the Covenant" in Eph 2:12?
    37. If the term, "the law" always means the 10 commandments, then why is Leviticus called "The Law" in Mt 22:35ff, Numbers called "The Law" in Mt 12:5, Deuteronomy called "The Law" in Mt 22:35f, Psalms called "The Law" in Jn 10:34,45, Rom 3:10-12; 3:13-14,19, the Prophets called "The Law" in 1 Cor 14:21 and the Ten commandments are called "The Law" that is abolished in Rom 7:4-7?
    38. If the term "commandments" always means the 10 commandments, then why are the laws that are not part of the ten commandments but called commandments in Mt 19:16-19 not also included?
    39. If the term "commandments" always means the 10 commandments, then what did Paul call the injunction for prophet’s wives to keep silent in the assemblies, a "commandment of the Lord" in 1 Cor 14:37?
    40. If the term "keep my commandments" always means the 10 commandments, then why is this a new commandment? Jn 15:10-12 + Jn 13:34.
    41. If only the ten commandments are going to endure until heaven and earth pass away, why did Jesus say the law AND THE PROPHETS? Mt 5:17-18
    42. When Jesus was asked, "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?" why did Jesus NOT QUOTE from the 10 commandments, but from the abolished ceremonial law of Moses? Matthew 22:36-40
    43. If the 10 commandments are the highest and most complete expression of God’s will, then why did it lack the two most important commandments? Matthew 22:36-40 where is the prohibition against drunkeness, homosexuality and fornication?
    44. If the 10 commandments are the highest and most complete expression of God’s will, then why did Jesus give a new commandment to "love one another, even as I have loved you" John 13:34. Where were the Jews told to love their neighbor as Yahweh loved them?
    45. If Christians worshipping on Sunday is equal to Sun Worship, then is Adventists worshipping on Saturday equal to Saturn worship?
    46. If Sabbatarians will boldly quote "scholars" who are really Bible trashers and skeptics who claim "the origin of Sunday worship is entirely pagan", like Arthur Weigall in his ridiculous little book, "the paganism in our Christianity", will these same Sabbatarians turn a few pages later where these same authors say the origin of the Sabbath is also pagan? "I have, already mentioned that Sunday, too, was a pagan holy-day; and in this chapter I propose to discuss the origin of this custom of keeping one day in the week as a Sabbath, or "day of rest,' and' to show that the practice was forcefully opposed by Jesus Christ. The origin of the seven-day week which was used by the Jews and certain other peoples, but not till, later by the Greeks or Romans, is to be sought in some primitive worship of the moon (The Paganism in Our Christianity, Arthur Weigall, 1928, p209,210-211)
    47. If the Sabbath is a moral law, why did Jesus say that David, the priests, a man with his donkey could all break the Sabbath without sin? Mt 12:1-14; Mk 2:23f, Lk 13:10-17; 14:1-6 Jn 5:8-18; 7:19-24; 9:14-16.
    48. If the Sabbath is a moral law, why did God grow tired of the Jews keeping it and told them to stop keeping the Sabbath? Isa 1:13-14 Did God ever grow weary of anyone not committing adultery or murder, and tell them to be immoral and kill?
    49. If the Sabbath is a moral law, how could Jesus break it without sinning? Jn 5:18
    50. If one of the distinctions between the ten commandments was proven by the fact they were written by the finger of God, why did Moses copy them out twice with his own hand? How can there be any distinction between the 10 commandments in the ark and the book of the law beside the ark, if the book contained two copies of exactly what was in the ark?
    51. Why are the terms "ceremonial law" and "moral law" never found in the Bible. Why is the word ceremonial or any of its roots never found in the same verse as the word LAW and why is the word moral or any of its roots never found in the same verse as the word LAW?
    52. If there is a distinction between moral and ceremonial laws, why do "God’s laws" and "the law of God" contain ceremonial laws. Why do "Moses law" and the "law of Moses" contain moral laws?
    53. If there is a distinction between moral and ceremonial laws, why does the "law of God" command animal sacrifices Lk 2:23-24 and the "law of the Lord" contains burnt offerings 2 Chron 31:3; 1 Chron 16:40?
    54. If there is a distinction between moral and ceremonial laws, then why is the book of the law filled with moral laws not contained in the 10 commandments?
    55. If there is a distinction between the Law of the Lord and the Law of Moses, why in 2 Chron 35:26 are "the acts of Josiah and his deeds of devotion as written in the law of the Lord"?
    56. If there is a distinction between moral and ceremonial laws, then why does the Law of God include new moons, solemn feast days: Ps 81:3-4?
    57. If there is a distinction between the Law of the Lord and the Law of Moses, why did the law tell Israel to dwell in tents: Neh 8:14?
    58. If Jesus came to fulfill the law and the prophets, then didn’t Mt 5:17 say that only then would they be abolished before heaven and earth pass away? If the law and the prophets are still in force, doesn’t that prove Jesus didn’t fulfill the law completely?
    59. When you ask me, "if the 10 commandments are abolished, does that mean we can steal", can I ask you, "when you travel from Canada to the USA, does that mean you can steal? Is it possible that two completely different "codes of law" (law of Moses vs. law of Christ) have the same laws just like Canada and the USA?
    60. If the Jewish law against eating pork was abolished by Christ, why do Sabbatarians continue to enforce what they call, "the ceremonial law of Moses": Mk 7:18-19; 1 Tim 4:1-4; Rom 14:2; Acts 10:9-16
    61. If the Jewish law of Tithing is forbidden in 2 Cor 9, why do Sabbatarians practice from "ceremonial law of Moses"?
    62. If the Jewish Sabbath was abolished in Col 2:14-16, yet Sabbatarians keep the Sabbath, which itself is the only ceremonial law of the 10 commandments?
    63. Why do you practice Tithing which is Prohibited: 2 Cor 9:7 forbid Eating Pork, which is Permitted: Mk 7:18-19 and keep the Sabbath which is Abolished: Col 2:14-16? Aren’t all three of these ceremonial laws?
    64. When Sabbatarians attempt to prove there is a distinction between the moral vs. ceremonial laws, the law of God vs. the Law of Moses, the 10 commandments vs. and the book of the law, and they shown countless bible passages that destroy any distinction Sabbatarians might dream up, will they at least be honest and admit they need to find some definitive way to create this false distinction that does not exist in the Bible and will try again tomorrow?
    65. Why do you refuse to accept that Col 2:16 contains the Old Testament pattern of referring to the Jewish holy says in a yearly, monthly, weekly sequence as in 1 Chronicles 23:31, 2 Chronicles 31:3, 2 Chronicles 8:13, 2 Chronicles 2:4, Nehemiah 10:33, Ezekiel 45:17, Hosea 2:11, Galatians 4:10?
    66. If the plural "sabbaton" in Col 2:16 cannot refer to weekly Sabbath day, then why does plural "sabbaton" refer to the weekly Sabbath day in Matthew 28:1, Luke 4:16, Acts 16:13, Exodus 20:8 (in Septuagint) Leviticus 23:37-38 (in Septuagint)?
    67. If in Col 2:16, the lack of the definite article before the word "Sabbath" in the Greek proves it cannot refer to the weekly Sabbath, then why does the weekly Sabbath lack the definite article in Matthew 28:1, John 5:9, 10, 16?
    68. If Isa 66:23 proves the Sabbath will be in heaven, will the new moon festival also be there? "from new moon to new moon And from sabbath to sabbath".
    69. If Hebrews 4 teaches we are to keep the weekly Sabbath, then why does the text say we are to enter a rest that none of the Jews at the time of Joshua in the promised land ever experienced in v 8?
    70. If the Sabbath will endure forever because it is called "eternal" then won’t all the Jewish feasts and circumcision also endure because it is also called eternal in Gen 17:10-14 (same Hebrew word used)
    71. If the Sabbath will endure forever because it is called "holy" then won’t all the Jewish feasts also endure forever because they are also called holy?
    72. If the Sabbath will endure forever because God hallowed it, then won’t Solomon's temple Ps 65:4; 1 Ki 9:3 and the vessels in the tabernacle Ex 40:9; Num 31:6; 1 Ki 8:4 also endure forever because God hallowed them too?
    73. If the Sabbath will endure forever because it was an eternal sign between God and his people, then shouldn’t we also still practice circumcision Gen 17:11 and Passover Ex 12:13 because it too is called an eternal sign between God and his people?
    74. If it is only through the Sabbath that we can know that it is God who sanctifies us Ex 31:13, then what ever happened to faith in Christ sanctifying us? Any if we should therefore keep the Sabbath, then we must also build the tabernacle, for the Bible says through it we may know it is God who sanctifies us Ezel 37:28?
    75. If the fact that the Sabbath is mentioned in the New Testament after Pentecost proves it is still in force, then does the mention of The Day of Pentecost Acts 2:1, The days of unleavened bread Acts 12:3; 20:6, Days of Purification: Acts 21:26, Animal Sacrifices: Acts 21:26, Circumcision: Acts 16:3, Temple worship: Acts 24:12 prove we must keep these too because they are also mentioned and must therefore also still be in force like the Sabbath?
    76. If Seventh-day Adventists want to deny that their official position is that worshipping on Sunday is the Mark of the Beast, do they realize that the "inspired" Ellen G. White, Uriah Smith, the Advent review and Leo Schreven (who conducts "Revelation seminars" today) all call it the mark of the beast?
    77. Christians can find 21 reasons why the first day of the week is significant to their faith as Christians in the New Testament. Can Sabbatarians find even one reason in the New Testament why the Sabbath has any meaning distinct to Christians?
    78. Did you know that the Jewish Sabbath was significant to the Jews because it was a memoral of this present physical creation and their deliverance from the bondage of Egypt and that the first day of the week is a memorial of our new creation in Christ (2 Cor 5:7) and our deliverance from the bondage of sin. (Gal 4:4-5; Eph 1:7)
    79. Did you know that regardless of whether the Sadducee’s or Pharisee’s method of calculating Pentecost was used the year Christ died, both would calculate Pentecost in Acts 2:1 as the first day of the week. Did you also know that the official position of the Seventh-day Adventist church was that Pentecost in Acts 2:1 fell on a Sunday that year?
    80. Do you realize that the phrase, "that no collections be made when I come" in 1 Cor 16:2 proves the Christians were forbidden from saving up their offerings each week at home and demanded they put it into a common treasury every Sunday?
    81. Did you know that 1 Cor 16:2 actually says, "EVERY 1st day" because the same Greek phrase is also found in Acts 13:14 "appointed elders in EVERY church". Did you know that you must give every 1st day of the week in to the church’s common treasury?
    82. If Jesus died on Wednesday and rose on the Sabbath rather than a Friday - Sunday duration because you demand a full 72 hours in the grave, then why did Jesus count the Friday - Sunday duration as three days in Lk 13:32?
    83. If Jesus died on Wednesday and rose on the Sabbath rather than a Friday - Sunday duration because you demand a full 72 hours in the grave, why is exactly a 72 hour period called 4 days by Peter in Acts 10:3+9+23+24+30?
    84. If the fact that the 10 commandments were written in stone, that proves they will never be abolished, then where was Adam’s stone copy of the 10 commandments? Why did God not give Adam a stone copy once for all time? Why is it that Moses was first person in history to not only see the 10 commandments, but the first person to hold the stone tablets upon which the 10 commandments were written? Why do Seventh-day Adventists argue that the ten commandment law is no longer written in stone, but in the flesh of the human heart in 2 Corinthians 3:3? (Of course 2 Cor 3:3 says the 10 commandments were abolished and the new Covenant, the law of Christ is written on human hearts)
    85. If only the 10 commandments we can "live", then why does Ezek 20:11 say this of the "ceremonial law", "I gave them My statutes and informed them of My ordinances, by which, if a man observes them, he will live." (Ezek 20:11)?

    these were originally asked by Steve Rudd, but i have co-oped them for this thread.

    thankyou and God Bless
     
  4. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    This topic (of the 85 space-filling Q's above) is being put forward on the Ellen White thread. However this really has more to do with the doctrine on Sabbath than it does with Ellen White. So it applies to groups like the Seventh-day Baptists for example -- which means it really should be posted here.

    I will post those points here so that the Ellen White thread is not used as "this thread".

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  5. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/28/3315/8.html#000105

    There was a post-response chain regarding the 85 questions listed here on the Sabbath question posted on another thread (see the link below)

    http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/28/3315/8.html#000105

    Here is my response to that post on the Sabbath question --

    Lets run with that idea that the 7th day of thw week is a "Holy Day not the Sabbath" for a minute.

    The Genesis account gives very little information on Adam and Eve before the fall. We see nothing about them sleeping (aside from a kind of surgery), breakfast, lunch, dinner (aside from sinning)- planning their day, discovering new things, being honest, describing the joy of something found/done/discovered. Apart from sin - we have few details.

    But we DO have the two institutions.

    We know that they have the institution of Marriage because God quotes the language in Genesis 2 and applies it to Marriage. This they took with them from Eden.

    We know that they had a 7 day week.

    We know that their 7th-day - Holy Day given to them by Christ the Creator was established for them in Gen 2:2-3. And we know that is to THAT same language that God appeals in Exodus 20:8-11 saying that this SHABATH rest seen in GEn 2:2-3 "alone" establishes the solemnity of Christ the Creator's Shabbath. That it was specifically HIS act of Shabath REST that DEFINES how the Holy Day is to be kept. Shabath rest that is SEEN in Gen 2:2-3.

    Today - we can see that the three main attacks of humanism are against those three basic gifts that Adam and Eve took with them.

    1. Marriage is attacked - via cultural promotion of infidelity and the gay agenda even to the point of Getting some Christians to Join them.

    2. The Literal 7 day week of Creation week is challenged by humanists, atheist to the point even of getting some Christians to join them.

    3. The 7th day Holy Day of Christ the Creator made as a memorial of the Gen 1-2:3 "fact" is challenged not only by the evolutionists but by many Christians.

    Christ our Creator said that His Holy day was "MADE for MANKIND" Mark 2:27 and yet we see it is mankind that is most enthusiastic about attacking it.

    Blessings attacked and denied are blessings foreited.

    These facts are undisputed.

    The question is - what do we do with them? Ignore them?

    In Christ,

    Bob </font>[/QUOTE]
     
  6. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Wopic - that is interesting - but do you see it in Heb 3 or 4?
     
  7. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Here is the 2nd in the 85Q dialog

    There is no basis in all of scripture for ignoring something that God states as sanctified and set apart (made a Holy Day in Gen 2 as even you admitted).

    There is no indication in all of scripture that the week used to be known as 6 days.

    The ONlY thing done/created on the 7th day in Gen 2 was the establishment of the Holy Day.

    THE MAKING of that day and the MAKING of mankind are both referenced in Mark 2:27 and Christ said it is FOR mankind that it was MADe.

    These are not "assumption" they are fact.

    These Bible facts alone justify D.L Moody's statement on the Sabbath command of Christ the Creator..

    Those who attack Adventists for holding to this same authorotative view about God's Word in Gen 2:2-3, and choosing to honor and respect Christ the Creator's Holy day as valid, binding and a blessing to mankind starting in Eden -- fail to comprehend the scope of how well these basic parts of the argument were accepted by Christians a short time ago.

    In Christ,

    Bob </font>[/QUOTE]
     
  8. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    You are welcome. Each opportunity given me to highlight the clear teaching in scripture on this is actually a joy for me.

    And I agree with you that having a close look at scripture to see the details of what God has said is far more rewarding than debating with atheists over "who is smarter".

    In Christ,

    Bob </font>[/QUOTE]
     
  9. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Bob said
    #3. Moses speaks of Cain and SIN in Gen 4 but does not show us the Law of God saying "Thou shalt not murder" until Exodus 20. (Your argument is from the void of what the text does not say. Moses assumes his READERS have access to both Genesis and Leviticus. They could not argue from the void as you are doing).
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    quote:
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    Y4M2 said
    and murdering a person is an "Uh-Duh"

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    So also is following God's example and honoring what HE says He blessed and sanctified (set apart for Holy use). This is an "Uh Duh" in ALL of scripture.

    There is no example of any precident for "Ignoring what God has sanctified".

    The utltimate "Uh Duh" is honoring what God Sanctifies and "sets apart".

    But then when He TELLS us that it was MADE FOR MANKIND --

    Uh--Duh!!
     
  10. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    The only point highlighted there is that HE made it and that HE MADE it FOR MANKIND.

    Undisputed facts.

    As I said - "Undisputed facts" pointed out above ... "remain".

    Do you have a point?

    In Christ,

    Bob </font>[/QUOTE]
     
  11. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Here I point out the consistency of scripture. Instead of "assuming" that each reference to "Clean/Unclean" by the SAME AUTHOR is "something undefined and brand new" from every OTHER mention of the SAME concept -- I hold to the "consistency of scripture".

    Those who simply are "playing games" at scripture trying to avoid its clear teaching will often abondon exegesis (SAME author using the SAME concept) and "pretend" that eacy time they find refernce to that same thing they are free to "imagine" entirely new meanings.

    Indeed MOSES mention of the Clean/unclean animals in Gen 6 is the SAME as Moses mention of them in Lev 11.

    That would be arguing IN the context of the "consistency of scripture" -- you know "exegesis" -- Same author same concept.

    But it is interesting to see that you would take a leap off of that cliff in this "all for "?? (All for what? What do you get out of rejecting basic exegetical principles in that way?)

    Here is John Gill's Commentary admitting to the obvious point that you "need" to deny no matter how "obvious".

    Those who go after Adventist doctrine on these points end up rejecting well known Christian sources on almost every obvious point they pretend not to see.

    You have to admit - that makes it kinda fun to do engage in these discussions! [​IMG]

    IN Christ,

    Bob </font>[/QUOTE]
     
  12. yeshua4me2

    yeshua4me2 New Member

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    Mal 4:4-6

    "Remember ye the Law of Moses My servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb FOR ALL ISREAL, with the Statutes and Judgments. Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the Earth with a curse."


    now i know Moody didn't miss that verse.

    if you would have read further:


    "Sabbath" means "rest," and the meaning of the word gives a hint as to the true way to observe the day. God rested after creation, and ordained the Sabbath as a rest for man. He blessed it and hallowed it. Remember the rest-day to keep it holy. It is the day when the body may be refreshed and strengthened after six days of labor, and the soul drawn into closer fellowship with its Maker.

    True observance of the Sabbath may be considered under two general heads:

    1. cessation from ordinary secular work, and
    2. religious exercises.


    1. CESSATION FROM SECULAR WORK

    A man ought to turn aside from his ordinary employment one day in seven. There are many whose occupation will not permit them to observe Sunday, but they should observe some other day as a Sabbath. Saturday is my day of rest, because I generally preach on Sunday, and I look forward to it as a boy does to a holiday. God knows what we need.

    Ministers and missionaries often tell me that they take no rest-day; they do not need it because they are in the Lord's work. That is a mistake. When God was giving Moses instructions about the building of the tabernacle, He referred especially to the Sabbath, and gave injunctions for its strict observance; and later, when Moses was conveying the words of the Lord to the children of Israel, he interpreted them by saying that not even were sticks to be gathered on the sabbath to kindle fires for smelting or other purposes. Inspite of their zeal and haste to erect the tabernacle, the workmen were to have their day of rest. The command applies to ministers and others managed in Christian work today as much as to those Israelite workmen of old.

    very different than SDA sabbath. but nice try, Moody was not a sabatarian, sorry.
     
  13. yeshua4me2

    yeshua4me2 New Member

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    Here I point out the consistency of scripture. Instead of "assuming" that each reference to "Clean/Unclean" by the SAME AUTHOR is "something undefined and brand new" from every OTHER mention of the SAME concept -- I hold to the "consistency of scripture".

    Those who simply are "playing games" at scripture trying to avoid its clear teaching will often abondon exegesis (SAME author using the SAME concept) and "pretend" that eacy time they find refernce to that same thing they are free to "imagine" entirely new meanings.

    Indeed MOSES mention of the Clean/unclean animals in Gen 6 is the SAME as Moses mention of them in Lev 11.

    That would be arguing IN the context of the "consistency of scripture" -- you know "exegesis" -- Same author same concept.

    But it is interesting to see that you would take a leap off of that cliff in this "all for "?? (All for what? What do you get out of rejecting basic exegetical principles in that way?)

    Here is John Gill's Commentary admitting to the obvious point that you "need" to deny no matter how "obvious".

    Those who go after Adventist doctrine on these points end up rejecting well known Christian sources on almost every obvious point they pretend not to see.

    You have to admit - that makes it kinda fun to do engage in these discussions! [​IMG]

    IN Christ,

    Bob </font>[/QUOTE]
    </font>[/QUOTE]my point stands...John Gill clearly lists oxen goats and sheep (as clean) while


    Deu 14:4 These are the beasts which ye shall eat: the ox, the sheep, and the goat,
    Deu 14:5 The hart, and the roebuck, and the fallow deer, and the wild goat, and the pygarg, and the wild ox, and the chamois.
    Deu 14:6 And every beast that parteth the hoof, and cleaveth the cleft into two claws, and cheweth the cud among the beasts, that ye shall eat.


    Moses lists more, so again you misquote the intentions of Gill, as Gill is clearly saying that there are ONLY 3 clean animals for Noah, while for Isreal there were more. and Gill lists the reasons for the clean/unclean catagory, nothing to do with the Laws of Moses.

    clearly different clean animals.


    thankyou and God Bless
     
  14. yeshua4me2

    yeshua4me2 New Member

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    oh and of course:


    Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:


    where is the sabbath law?
     
  15. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Are you saying that Moody is wrong or that he should not have that pro-ten-commandment view of God's Law written on the heart under the New Covenant?

    Is that "a point"??

    Or are you debating Moody?

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  16. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Wonderful.

    But Moody says that it was binding on mankind in Eden.

    Futhermore - God defines it as "Blessed holy and sanctified" - set apart for Holy use in Gen 2:2-3.

    The fact that God considers it a day of worship EVEN in the New Earth is clear from Isaiah 66 "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before me To Worship"!!

    The idea that "God might not have thought about the religious significance/observance of the day" is foreign to all of scripture.

    But a desperate try is a good try if that is all you have Y4M2.

    In the mean time - I see Moody supporting the Sabbath commandment even in its religious significance by the DETAILS in his argument. It is the VERY 4th commandment not just the wording of Gen 2:2-3 that Moody argues FOR.

    Obviously.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  17. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Are you arguing that we SHOULD pay attention to the Word of God as IT speaks about Christ the Creator's Holy day???!!!

    Are you saying we should ignore the 4th commandment and rebel against it - or obey it -- but not like Adventists do??

    If so that is a VERY different model than you list of 85 will tolerate!!

    Moody is totally opposed to the spurious arguments on that list - have you given them up???

    You seem to be trying to find a "nice way" to honor Christ the Creator's Word regarding His Holy Day --- what a change!!

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  18. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    I argue for the "consistency of scripture" and for exegesis when we see clean/unclean in Gen 7 and we see that same idea used by the SAME author in Lev 11.

    But since Moses provides NO DEFINITION AT ALL of that animal distinction in Genesis - we is relying on the fact that He gives His readers BOTH the book of Genesis AND the book of Leviticus. A CONSISTENT view of the SAME author using the SAME concept to the SAME group of readers - the primary intended audience.

    You know - exegesis.

    John Gill's commentary agrees with this idea that we have information referenced in Genesis that is only defined for the reader in the other book of Moses.

    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    John Gill's Commentary on Gen 7 vs 1
    Verse 2.

    Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens,.... From hence it appears, that the distinction of clean and unclean beasts, at least for sacrifice, if not for food, was known before the flood, and so before the law of Moses; though some think this is said by anticipation, and as providing a large stock of such creatures for the propagation of their species; because they would be most serviceable to men both for food and sacrifice: but as it is certain that sacrifices were offered ever since the fall of man; by the same way, namely, by divine revelation, that men were taught to sacrifice creatures as typical of the sacrifice of Christ, they were directed what sort of creatures to offer, as were most suitable figures of him; those beasts that were clean, and used under the law, and so no doubt, at this time, were oxen, sheep, and goats: and these were to be taken into the ark by "sevens," or "seven seven" {p}; either only three pairs, male and female, for procreation, and the seventh a male for sacrifice, when the flood was over; or rather fourteen, seven couple, an equal number of male and female, as Aben Ezra and Ben Gersom, that there might be enough for propagation; since a large number of them would be consumed, both for food and sacrifice:

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    The fact that this term has a definition EVEN THOUGH in the written text of Genesis you find NO definition SHOWS/PROVES/EXEMPLIFIES the fact that a REFERENCE does not have to also include a repeat of the DEFINITION to be valid.

    This is true of Clean and Unclean in Gen 7.

    And it is true of Christ the Creatory's Holy Day referenced in Gen 2:2-3.

    Hence Moody argues that the 4th COMMANDMENT was binding IN EDEN - binding upon Adam.

    And Hence John Gill can reference DETAILS about the clean/unclean animals giving examples of them even though we have NO example of the list of animals given before the flood.

    I.E. The book of Genesis is not an exhaustive list of all "statutes commands and laws" given before Sinai.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  19. yeshua4me2

    yeshua4me2 New Member

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    you're still missing the point, moody is saying any day can be sabbath(not saturnday is the sabbath), so long as you rest one day in seven. and yes i disagree with Moody on the binding of the 10 commandments (so do many people).

    i believe that for christians the are 1648 laws for him to follow(as all old testament laws, including the 10 commandments, were completed with Jesus) as defined in the doctrinal letters of the NT (Col says they were nailed to the cross) (Gospel and Acts are history) every command (imparitive) that Jesus gave was to a Jewish audience, who were STILL BOUND by the OT law.

    I believe that the sabbath is a principle (rest one day in seven, all work and no play makes Dale,me, a grumpy fellow)not a law that is binding for gentiles. as the OT (all of them) were for the Jews (exception Naohic covenant), and Gentiles seeking to be Jews (strangers within the gates), not one time in the whole of scripture is there even a hint the the Jewish sabbath law the the Torah describes is for gentiles.

    Col 2:16 clearly exempts us (gentiles) from the Jewish sabbath law.

    and again not ONE JEWISH SAGE for the last 2000 years has said that it is for gentiles, as a matter of fact, they say the opposite.

    Even the modern Messianic Jew movement would disaggree with you.(saw it on crosstalk with Rabbi Randy Weiss). thay think JEWS should keep the 10 commands but like me gentiles are not bound by by the NT Christian Laws.'

    and yes i do know exegesis but disagree with SDA's brand of it.(as i am SBC).

    the words of Jesus:
    Luk 10:25 Behold, a certain Torah scholar stood up and tested him, saying, "Rabbi, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?"
    Luk 10:26 He said to him, "What is written in the Torah? How do you read it?"
    Luk 10:27 He answered, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself."
    Luk 10:28 He said to him, "You have answered correctly. Do this, and you will live."

    what about the sabbath

    thanks again Bob and God Bless
     
  20. yeshua4me2

    yeshua4me2 New Member

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    and i never said people shouldn't have a sabbath day, just that it's not a law, binding on gentiles.

    rested all day today.

    thankyou and God Bless
     
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