Sabbath-Scriptures Unknown

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Gerhard Ebersoehn, Oct 15, 2006.

  1. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
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    Sabbath-Scriptures Unknown

    Romans 14:9,
    For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that He might be Lord both of the dead and living.

    With these words, Paul closes his discussion on the controversy going on in the Church at Rome about the regarding of certain days above others. For Paul the issue was to be resolved by the only measure of distinction by which days should receive special significance: Is the day “regarded unto the Lord”, it’s distinction by the believer was to be accepted and respected by any who might have been of different mind.

    Why would Paul conclude with the words of verse 9; why would he “finish speaking” thus on this controversy?

    In Leviticus chapter 23 the various Sabbaths of Old Testament times were summarised in order of greatness and importance, and the ‘weekly’ Sabbath topped the list as the main and ‘lordly’ day of worship. The Sabbath is said to belong to God in person: “My, Sabbaths”. In the Fourth Commandment the Seventh Day Sabbath is said to be “the Sabbath of the LORD your God”, or, “of the I am your Strong One”. God is seen as Conqueror Lord through feat of strength and combat. The Sabbath is ‘His Day’; it is the Lord Victor’s, ‘Day’ – the day of His, triumph namely! The Sabbath is the Day of the ‘LORD’s,’completion, of His fulfilment and of His accomplishment. What He set out to do, God had done and “finished” – upon this Day the Seventh Day Sabbath -- therefore it is the first in order of God’s Sabbaths, and is named by the Name of “the LORD your God”. And therefore again, is it proclaimed the Day “holy unto the LORD!

    In both the Ten Commandments, in the creation-saga as well as in the redemption-saga, the Seventh Day of God’s works, receive the honoured place and status of having been the Day of God’s choosing and doing in finishing, in blessing, in resting, and in sanctification – never for any reason in itself, but by reason purely of God’s accomplishments: by the very reason of His Divine earning and receiving Title and Lordship through creation and redemption … and, through self-satisfaction in that He “refreshed Himself”, “in Himself revived” the word in this text of Paul’s choice for Christ in resurrection from the dead – a ‘Sabbath’s word’!
     
  2. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    It is this last word, of God’s self-satisfaction, that is seen in Paul’s words as implying the Sabbath Day, for Paul’s choice of words, obviously, is not perchance, but as so often is, words chosen directly from “the Scriptures” of the Old Testament.

    John also uses the Scriptures in this way to glorify God, where he in the 14th chapter of Revelation, applies words directly taken from the Fourth Commandment to describe the angel’s triumphal message of the risen Christ: “And I saw another angel fly, in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting Gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth; to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, saying with a loud voice: Fear God, and give glory to Him; for the hour of his judgment is come; and worship Him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.” The Sabbath of yonder, both the ‘creation-Sabbath’ and ‘redemption-Sabbath’, proclaimed “the everlasting Gospel” of Jesus and of His resurrection from the dead. It is called a ‘perpetual sign’ and ‘Everlasting Covenant’ between the God LORD of the Sabbath and the People of the God LORD of the Sabbath for no reason other than Jesus Christ in Lordly victory through resurrection from the dead. Because of Jesus Christ being fore-seen through the Sabbath Day, the Sabbath Day inevitably and relentlessly ‘comes’ “unto them that dwell on the earth” as day and “hour of (God’s) judgment” through Christ being “preach(ed) unto them that dwell on the earth”. Remove the Gospel of Christ’s Lordship through feat of resurrection from the dead from the Sabbath Day, and not even an empty shell remains, what the day of God for reckoning with unbelief through proclamation.

    It isn’t stated in so many words John’s is a reference to and a use of the Fourth Commandment though nobody will deny. Why wouldn’t it be true also of Paul’s words in Romans? There cannot be objected Paul had the Sabbath in mind here, where all that mattered was, whether the ‘day’ be ‘regarded’ “unto the Lord”; or not; whether Christ be exalted through it or Christ be denied without it*. [* This is why the clause in verse 6, “he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it” cannot be genuine. See Book 4. See also footnote.] In fact, all that mattered was whether this Day implied, belonged to the Lord and to His People to the honour and glory of God in the face of Jesus. Who could judge ‘the day regarded’ was not, ‘unto the Lord regarded’? Then it is to be recommended and not only tolerated, that the day be regarded, and nobody should dare act the judge, was Paul’s advice!
     
  3. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    The implication and supposition of the Sabbath Day in the words of Paul in Romans 14:9, fully agree with the whole trend and intent of the whole of the foregoing chapter.

    But now let us further look to see if it is indeed so that in Romans 14:9
    Paul applies concepts from the Fourth Commandment to the Lordship of Christ by feat of resurrection from the dead. We have quoted the Authorised Version, which, of course, is a Translation from the Textus Receptus. It will be noted, however, that the Nestlé Aland Text differs; it omits the word, “revived”. The LXX uses two virtually identical words in the corresponding Old Testament passage – which is Exodus 31:17 – where it says that “the Lord on the Seventh Day ceased, and rested” – tehi hehmerai tehi hebdomehi katepause, kai epausato.

    But the Original, the Hebrew, instead uses totally different words, each with peculiar meaning! And to it, Paul’s ‘rendering’ – and use – fully agree! Renders Paul,
    For to this end (eis touto gar) Christ both died (apethanen
    (LXX forces the Hebrew for “rest” virtually to its opposite of having ‘stopped’ or ‘died’)
    and rose and revived (TR: anesteh kai edzehsen)
    (The TR distinguishes resurrection and spiritual revival; NA by omitting anesteh kai reduces edzehsen to ‘mere’, physical revival.)

    The Hebrew in Exodus 31:17 uses the word, ‘shabath’ for “rested”, which was God’s act of victorious accomplishment, not of inactivity like the human rest commanded in the Sabbath Commandment, and which meant the very opposite of ‘stopped’ (or ‘died’). It also uses the word ‘naphash’, “refreshed” or “revived” – just like Paul in Romans 14:9 employs both anesteh kai edzehsen – “He rose and revived”. Now the word ‘naphash’ clearly is derived from the word ‘nephesh’: ‘life, heart, soul, breath’. God did not only “finish”; He more than ‘stopped’ and made New Beginning. He “made an end”, that is, He “created” (ktidzoh) ultimate end on the Sabbath Day: He “revived”. God received His own glory. For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that He might be Lord both of the dead and living.” Christ “obtained” both Lordship and “eternal purpose” of originally creating.
     
  4. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    Why, did we ask, would Paul conclude his diatribe with the words of verse 9; why would he “finish speaking” thus, we said? Because he refers to and leans upon the Old Testament “Scriptures” – and completely depends on it for what he has to say himself. Paul finds the Word of God through Jesus Christ in resurrection from the dead the final word, as Exodus 31:17-18 declares, “For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the Seventh Day He rested, and was revived … and He made an end of speaking …”. “He had given testimony”.

    So God Himself “made an end of speaking” and “gave testimony”, “in that He raised up Christ from the dead in the glory of the Father” which is His Lordship, and “revived” Christ in the glory of His own being, “and set Him at His right hand in utmost height of heavenly exaltation”.

    Now therefore stand still (keep Sabbath), that I may reason with you before the LORD, of all the righteous acts of the LORD, which He did --- to you and to your fathers” (1Sm12:7) through Jesus Christ!

    For He spake in a certain place in Scripture of the Seventh Day on this wise, And God did rest the Seventh Day from all His works. And in this, again, If they shall enter into my rest” … It was God, speaking through Christ – speaking through Christ through resurrection from the dead.

    If in Jesus Christ be our faith and hope and strength – if in Him we have our Lord and Saviour God, the Sabbath of the Lord has served His worship and fulfilled its purpose, as from of old, so, until this day. The Sabbath served the LORD on resurrection day of Christ, and still serves the LORD on resurrection day of Christ, as it is His Holy. The Sabbath serves Christ’s Worship, risen Lord of glory, until this day and forever more. We cannot sing the praises of the Sabbath Day but praise the Lord of Resurrection-Day instead!
     
  5. BobRyan

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    And then - there is the Word of God.

    Isaiah 55 "From Sabbath to Sabbath SHALL ALL mankind come before Me to WORSHIP"

    The Words of Christ "The Sabbath was MADE for MANKIND" Mark 2:27

    The Words of Christ "The Son of man IS LORD of the Sabbath " Mark 2:28 making IT the Lord's DAY!

    And the Words of God given to Moses in Gen 1-2:3 not only outlining the CREATIVE acts of Christ our Creator but ALSO pointing to HIS OWN memorial of HIS creative Work - HIs OWN day! His Holy Sabbath - MEMORIAL of all He DID in HIS Creative act.

    Keep it Holy -- says the Word of God "BECAUSE IN SIX days the LORD made the heavens and the earth the sea and all that is in them.. and RESTED on the seventh-day... Blessed the Seventh day MADE it holy" Exodus 20:8-11

    And those who have such disdain for the Word of God as SPOKEN directly BY God Himself would do well to recall that Christ said such a view would be called "LEAST" in the kingdom of heaven. Matt 5.

    Further more - As we ALL are coming before God FROM SABBATH to SABBATH to WORSHIP in the new Heavens and New EArth - I wonder How much "disdain" God will be showing for HIS OWN Word as HE affirms "the scriptures CAN NOT be broken". In fact I think we all know - it is "no disdain at all" that He will show for HIS Word for HE IS the God "that does NOT change".

    In Rev 14:6-8 we see that EVEN in the end-time scenario where "the Hour of God's judgment HAS COME" the compelling motive for worship IS STLIL the Sabbath-based view of Christ "Worship HIM WHO MADE the Heavens and the earth the sea and the springs of water" - that Sabbath imperative REMAINS.

    Question: Why is it so direct, so obvious, so clear to make this case from the Word of God alone instead of having to spin story after story for som "other agenda"? Answer - Because the Word of God really is that direct on this key point about Christ the Creator's own Holy day. Only by showing disdain for His Word - do others find room to insert their own convoluted agendas.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #5 BobRyan, Oct 15, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 15, 2006
  6. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    It is 'my' thread. BobRyan, I beg you not to obtruse. Thank you very much.
    Gerhard Ebersoehn
     
  7. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    Correction: 'obtrude'
     
  8. Claudia_T

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    Gerhard,

    I am not sure but I dont think you can tell someone not to post on "your" thread. It isnt yours as if you own it.

    And besides that, I got a real laugh from what Bob said "And then -there is the Word of God" LOL! :laugh:
     
  9. BobRyan

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    And then - there is the Word of God.

    Isaiah 55 "From Sabbath to Sabbath SHALL ALL mankind come before Me to WORSHIP"

    The Words of Christ "The Sabbath was MADE for MANKIND" Mark 2:27

    The Words of Christ "The Son of man IS LORD of the Sabbath " Mark 2:28 making IT the Lord's DAY!

    ---------------------

    You have to ask yourself - "Who is the guy that finds this part of the Word of God so repulsive"??

    What brings a person to that point?

    You just gotta wonder.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  10. BobRyan

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    Oh no wait! That is not the part of the word of God that is "the worst" for GE - I think THIS part must be the absolutely worst for him --

    IV –
     
  11. music4Him

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    This is the debate fourm? Isn't it? So I thought we were allowed to obtrude? Sabbath is on Saterday, but some people worship in a church on Sunday. Unless you have a church that will open the doors on Saterday. And if there was one that has the same beliefs as I believe on the spiritual gifts and was open on Saterday I would go to church on Saterday. :flower:
     
  12. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    Quoting BobRyan,
    "Maybe I should just confine myself to referencing the "actual text" by saying THEREFORE the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy. And that way everyone will "just know" which text I am referring to -- and GE will just "know" about that "THEREFORE" thing as it relates to why God blessed that particular day."

    I should ask pardon that I asked you not to poke your nose into this thread, for here I see something positive that might result from your doing so - positive although in a negative way. For see, I think in these words of yours I think one can see the BASIC difference between your approach and mine. Your words here state exactly what you accept for what the Scriptures is worth. I would disagree, and as follows:
    You just confine yourself to the day per se - God blessed the Sabbath in itself, for its own sake. That would be contrary Jesus' approach, who said the Sabbath was made for the sake of man - for his sake in the sense of, for his salvation. Now God never blessed the sabbath, nor sanctified it, for itself. That would be superstitious. If the "therefore" of the Sabbath Commandment not only points to Christ, but brings Christ in as the end of the Sabbath Commandment, I say it's worthless and nothing but the vainglory and self-righteousness of man. That is my last word on your all too limited and confined approach to the spirituality of God's Law. God's Law is no longer contained in letter and stone; it is contained in the Living Word of God, Jesus Christ. And that is what it means to believe in all the Scriptures for me, because all the Scriptures have but one object in view: Jesus the Son of God the Son of Man, "the Fulness that fulfils all in all", or better than Paul himself, I am unable to put it: "to plehrohma tou ta panta en pasin plehroumenou" - a resurrection-word of his in Eph.1:23. I would easily - no inevitably- apply it to the Sabbath Day; you would and could not. That's the difference between us.
     
  13. rstrats

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    Gerhard Ebersoehn,

    re: "Sabbath-Scriptures Unknown"

    ??????????

    I wonder if you might condense your posts into to a couple of sentences which explain the point that you are trying to make.

    As for Romans 14, the subject of the chapter from start to finish seems to be concerned with what people eat. Paul is writing about asceticism. Some in the church at Rome believed Christians should eat only vegetables. Paul calls these people "weak in the faith" (verses 1-2). The stronger in faith know they could also eat meat. Nothing in God’s law prescribes vegetarianism. The stronger in faith knew they were free from non-biblical asceticism. A part of the controversy that had sprung up between the weak and the strong Christians was the esteeming of days. In Rome some people had the pagan idea that on certain days certain foods should or should not be eaten. In this whole chapter Paul was just showing that others should not be offended, particularly weak members who have not yet learned the truth about the proper Christian diet and that they should not be judged by the stronger in the faith. I don’t see how this passage has anything to do with the Sabbath.
     
  14. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    You obviously don't see how this passage has anything to do with the Sabbath -- it hasn't! You said I say it has; I say I don't.

    I say this passage has to do with Passover's "head" or important days. Some believers "regarded" the 'head'-days above the rest of Passover's 'days'; others regarded all days as equally important. Paul says, good so, everybody regards the day (or days) he regards, "unto the Lord" -- we are the Lord's whether we live therefore, or die..." whether we are rather Old-Testamentish or rather 'enlightened'-New Testamentish. For when we look at what God did on the Seventh Day, such distinction between the days of Passover, becomes nothing. "For this end Christ both died and rose, AND REVIVED (Ex31:17) that he might be Lord both of the dead (OT believers) and living (NT believers)."
     
  15. LeBuick

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    Well, he got me not to post since I can read his. The print is too small for me??? I figure if you really had something to say you'd say it so others could read it.
     
  16. BobRyan

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    "Making Stuff Up" does not help your case GE.

    You have to actually LOOK at the text -- it is GOD that says "THEREFORE the Lord BLESSED the Sabbath day AND made it Holy".

    The THEREFORE follows some "WORDS" in the actual commandments - words that you would feign ignore and substitute out for your OWN words.

    Why not let God speak "instead"???

    8 ""Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
    9 "" Six days
    you shall labor and do all your work,
    10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you.
    11 ""
    For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy

    All the GE mumbo jumbo so necessary in GE's model just is not i n the text that conlcudes with therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy

    In so blessing and sanctifying the day - God MAKES the day a blessing for mankind - to see Him do it - we simply read His own SUMMARY of having already done it -- in Exodus 20!
     
  17. BobRyan

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    There is a lot to be said for that.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  18. Inquiring Mind

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    Sunday

    God begins to reveal His displeasure with the Sabbath.
    Isaiah 1:13 – Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.

    The Gospel writers purposely reveal Jesus' resurrection and appearances were on Sunday. This is because Sunday had now become the most important day in the life of the Church.
    Matt. 28:1 And in the end of the sabbath, when it began to dawn towards the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalen and the other Mary, to see the sepulchre.
    Mark 16:2 And very early in the morning the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun.
    Mark 16:9 Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.
    John 20:1 And on the first day of the week, Mary Magdalen cometh early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre; and she saw the stone taken away from the sepulchre.
    John 20:19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.


    This text shows the apostolic tradition of gathering together to celebrate the Breaking of the Bread on Sunday, the "first day of the week." Luke documents the principle worship was on Sunday because this was one of the departures from the Jewish form of worship
    Acts 20:7 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.

    Paul instructs the Corinthians to make contributions to the churches "on the first day of the week," which is Sunday. This is because the primary day of Christian worship is Sunday.
    1 Cor. 16:2 On the first day of the week let every one of you put apart with himself, laying up what it shall well please him; that when I come, the collections be not then to be made.

    Paul teaches that the Sabbath was only a shadow of what was fulfilled in Christ, and says "let no one pass judgment any more over a Sabbath."
    Col. 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

    We are to hold fast to apostolic tradition, whether it is oral or written. The 2,000 year-old tradition of the Church is that the apostles changed the Sabbath day of worship from Saturday to Sunday.
    2 Thess. 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

    Regarding the day of rest, if Joshua had given rest, God would not later speak of "another day," which is Sunday, the new Sabbath. Sunday is the first day of the week and the first day of the new creation brought about by our Lord's resurrection, which was on Sunday.
    Heb. 4:8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. 9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.

    Because we have a new Priest and a new sacrifice, we also have a new day of worship, which is Sunday.
    Heb. 7:12 - For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

    John specifically points out that he witnesses the heavenly Breaking of the Bread on Sunday, the Lord's day, the new day of rest in Christ.
    Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

    Whatever the Church binds on earth is bound in heaven. Since the resurrection, Service has been principally celebrated on Sunday.
    Matt 16:19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.
    Matt 18:18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
    Since the resurrection, Mass has been principally celebrated on Sunday.
     
  19. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
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    God did NOT bless the Sabbath because He had made the earth etc in six days; that is the SDAs' view, not the Bible's
    After it says that God rested the Seventh Day, it says He blessed it, and the "therefore" refers to the fact of God's resting ON, the Seventh Day. He 'created' not on the Seventh Day; 'therefore', therefore does not refer to creation but to God IN THE ACT AND WORD OF HIS REST. That is solid implication of God's final deeds through Jesus Christ whereby creation is FINISHED and the Sabbath BLESSED as the "BEGINNING AND END OF THE CREATION OF GOD" - Revelation I think th third chapter.

    It is BobRyan who 'feigns' that he doesn't see this; it is he, who 'ignores' it. Bob Ryan's boast is how completely he strips the Sabbath of Christian meaning. You qualify, I'm sure, to become a rabbi in the synagogue; I think even the Islam will accept your teachings it's so Christ-less.
     
  20. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    Inquiring mind:
    "God begins to reveal His displeasure with the Sabbath."

    Yea truly I start to feel the same the longer I read the SDAs' Sabbath-doctrine. If not for Jesus' salvation I wouldn't have believed the Sabbath either; but since He, Jesus, as, the Son of Man, "made the Sabbath", and made it here and while on this earth in His own Person and Divine deeds of saving from and conquering sin and death by dying and rising, He has given us, 'man', "for (our) sake" and salvation --- as instrumental help towards the life of His Body the Church.

    You think you could do without the Sabbath (Christian)? Then you must think Jesus didn't know what He was doing when He gave the Church and the individual believer, His Holy Sabbath. (Have you ever noticed how in the OT God reserves the Sabbath for Himself, and how it is only in the NT that He shares it with man so abuntantly and graciously?
     

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