Sabbath truth arguements...

Matthew 24 is for Isrrael

 

Matt 24 says "this gospel will be preached in ALL the world and THEN will the and come".

Matt 24 says that ALL the tribes of the earth will mourn at the 2nd coming for Christ will appear to all (as lightinng from east to west) and He will gather His elect from the four corners of the earth.

It is very difficult to downsize Matt 24 to "Just Jews" any more than we can downsize John 14:1-3 to "Just the Disciples" when Christ said "If I go away I WILL come again and recieve you unto Myself".

Hence in Matt 28 Christ commands His disciples TO GO into all the world and "teach them all that I taught you".

in Christ,

Bob

 

This seems to be a futile argument, that possibly will go on until the Lord comes and answers it. Trying to mix law with grace, is pointed to in the parable of the old wine skins.

Paul in many of his epistles makes it clear, that mixing law with grace nullifies the grace of god. He also makes it clear to live under law is to die under law, and be judged by the law, of which no flesh can be saved. James makes it clear to desire to live under the law is foolish, in that if you overstep one point, you have broken all points.

And yes when Christ died on the cross, he completed the requirements of the law nailing it to his cross, and making it possible for those who believe to fulfill the law through faith in him. No he did not come to change the law but to fulfill it. Gods laws of righteousness will never change.

If Christs death did not satisfy all of Gods requirements, then he died for nothing, and those who believe in him, and look forward to the promises he made are the most foolish of men. I did not say this first! Paul beat me to it 2000 years ago.

 

GE
Calvin says in his Catechism the 'work'-part of the Fourth Cammandment was abolished. He need not have said because it was the 'ceremonial'-part of the Commandment. I say if that aspect of the Sabbath had been abolished, it had been abolished, and if ever a reason could be given for that, it must be Jesus Christ. There cannot be any other reason for whatever Christian.

An absolutely Christian rule is what Paul gave us; if you accepted the responsibility to be a father of your household and cannot or do not provide for it, you are worse than an unbeliever. To be the better Christian you could be, Thou shalt work on the Sabbath Day! That gives no one leave to go get rich by abusing the Sabbath Day. Greediness is the root of all evil; Christ cannot be served by being a profit-hunter.

Work on the Sabbath should not be a problem for a Christian. The liberty with which Christ has made us free, reaches higher than temporal anxiety. Be free in Christ; be happy, enjoy life --- through, the Sabbath Day more than any other day, even if it meant you must work on it. We no longer live under the Jewish econmy! It is God's will for the believer in Christ that he should not want in anything but riches. That is what Paul teaches in Colossians 2. He does not teach the Sabbath's joys and privileges could be handed out at random according to our own liking to any other day. The Positives of the Seventh Day Sabbath belong to God as does the day. To transfer it unto another day is transgression of the Commandment not to steal; of the Commandment You shall not kill; and every other Commandment there is or might be -- it will mean to provoke God. What did Jesus do on the Sabbath Day and what did He use it for; What did the Apostolic Church do on the Sabbath Day and what did they use it for. And this last thing may seem the least understood by us post-apostolic time Christians, because we are no longer able to realise the usual-ness, the being taken for granted of the Sabbath Day right through the New Testament times, Church and Scriptures. The Sabbath Day so regulated and filled the Early Christian's life it scarcely got mentioned or discussed and never, as far as which Day the Sabbath was, was an issue. The nature of the Sabbath - that, was a very big issue in the New Testament Church; the Gospels are full of it. But there was also the Church vis a vis the world Sabbath-issue, and that is what we read about in Colossians 2; and that therefore is the absolute of the Early Christian's very dear and precious keeping of the Lord's Day. Sunday never ever except in Galatians 4:10 gets distinguishable as some reality of that time of Christianity, because Sunday existed as a pagan and idolatrous counterfeit practice of the Christian religion's Faith of Jesus Christ.

 

Darren,
"2 Colossians seems to support my view that one certain day is not of more importance than the others for worship. Sunday is the tradition, as such the ideal. Of course Saturday is set aside in scripture, so it too is ideal. Of course, if you work both, they're not ideal anymore. Me, I'm in the army, I take what I can get. The enemy doesn't rest on Sunday."

GE
This is a refreshingly honest statement; you give me hope Darren!

"Me, I'm in the army, I take what I can get. The enemy doesn't rest on Sunday."

GE
How easy for the hypocrite who refuses to work on the Sabbath but abuses another's sacrifice on the Sabbath to his own gain. My dear brother in Christ, serve God on His Sabbath Day while serving your country; nobler there is not! It sometimes requires one must kill to serve the safety and peace of the God-fearing nation; in other words, to 'transgress' the Commandment not to kill! So what makes the Sabbath-Commandment any better? But on your Sabbat Day-off, you dare not visit the pub with your tjommies, or do your second job. It's easy to know the difference between what God wants you to do -- you are a Christian!

"2 Colossians seems to support my view ..." I really do not think so!

"... that one certain day is not of more importance than the others for worship...."
How do you see that in Colossians 2, to be honest? There's nothing of the kind in there. On the contrary, Paul says the exact opposite: "Do not you let anyone (of the world, because his whole Letter is dealing with the uncomfortableness between the world and the Church) Do not let anyone of the world judge = condemn you as with regard to your feasting = "eating and drinking (of Christ)" of Sabbaths'-feast" : Not, of any other days' feasting!

"... Sunday is the tradition, as such the ideal...."? No! Paul argues otherwise; he on the contrary argues what the 'world' condemns the Christians for, is 'tradition'. Tradition is not the ideal as far as God is concerned; tradition is the very denial and condemnation of what to God is the ideal!

Of course Saturday is set aside in Scripture, so it to is ideal. Of course, if you work both, they're not ideal anymore."

"Of course Saturday is set aside in Scripture, so it too is ideal." Ja, now you are speaking the plain truth. Stick by it; it shall not disappoint you! It shall reward you!

" Of course, if you work both, they're not ideal anymore. " If needed to your honest best, both are good, and God-pleasing, for work, that is. But for worship, God demanded the Seventh Day, and gave the Seventh Day "for the good of man" Mk2:27-28. The faithful believer cannot get past a single Scripture, and will not desire to get past any. God's mercy upon you, brother in Jesus Christ!

 

Samuel Owen:
"This seems to be a futile argument, that possibly will go on until the Lord comes and answers it. Trying to mix law with grace, is pointed to in the parable of the old wine skins.

Paul in many of his epistles makes it clear, that mixing law with grace nullifies the grace of god. He also makes it clear to live under law is to die under law, and be judged by the law, of which no flesh can be saved. James makes it clear to desire to live under the law is foolish, in that if you overstep one point, you have broken all points.

And yes when Christ died on the cross, he completed the requirements of the law nailing it to his cross, and making it possible for those who believe to fulfill the law through faith in him. No he did not come to change the law but to fulfill it. Gods laws of righteousness will never change.

If Christs death did not satisfy all of Gods requirements, then he died for nothing, and those who believe in him, and look forward to the promises he made are the most foolish of men. I did not say this first! Paul beat me to it 2000 years ago."

GE:
I do not see this the argument here, at all: "This seems to be a futile argument, that possibly will go on until the Lord comes and answers it. Trying to mix law with grace, is pointed to in the parable of the old wine skins." But have you not read that verse that says something like Law and Grace that kiss? Kiss one another, in fact! How have you, Samuel Owen, managed to separate Law and Grace. Is not the whole dispensation of God aimed at reconciling Law and Grace? Do you know a worthy Protestant who have not fought for the reconciliation of Law and Grace? Which true Pretestant Reformer can you identify was an antinomian? You have a grave problem in the company of the 'orthodox' old lot. I like their conversation very much!

No. Paul makes it clear, to pitch law against grace nullifies the grace of God! He also makes it clear to live under law is to die under law -- "I die daily" --, and be judged by the law, of which no flesh can be saved, which is for absolutely sure, and so brings man under the need of Grace for his only hope! "Where sin increased, there grace the more abounded". Actually according to the Greek, "There Grace utterly abounded / super-abounded!" ('hypereperyseysen') --- "The power of sin, is the Law"! Lessen the Law, lessen the increase of sin, and lessen the increase of Grace!

"James makes it clear to desire to live under the law is foolish, in that if you overstep one point, you have broken all points." ... Which of course you should know as well as I do, simply is not what James says; nay, in fact, is putting the lie in James' mouth. Nevertheless, I agree with you; just don't say James 'makes it clear', because he does not say it! But you should distinguish between to live "under the Law" and to live "to the Law", and to live "by the Law", etc. Paul, to remind you of a universal truth, garuantees you, "the Law for as long as he lives, is over every man". You and I are sinners and for as long as we live are condemned sinners because the Law condemns us sinners for as long as we live. You think there is another reason why Christ made us free from the law and the curse of the Law? You will never get away from the Law for as long as you hide your life in Christ. Put your foot out, and you've had it! The Law waits for you: "The power of sin is the Law!"

And yes when Christ died on the cross, he completed the requirements of the law nailing it to his cross, and making it possible for those who believe to fulfill the law through faith in him. No he did not come to change the law but to fulfill it. Gods laws of righteousness will never change.

If Christs death did not satisfy all of Gods requirements, then he died for nothing, and those who believe in him, and look forward to the promises he made are the most foolish of men. I did not say this first! Paul beat me to it 2000 years ago, and Samuel owen, a few minutes ago.

 

Has that now made you 'free' from the Sabbath Law? Or let me put a better way, Has that now robbed you of the Sabbath? Pitty if it did. I thought it would mean the Sabbath's blessings to any who believe!

 

"satisfy" as in "Abolish"??

Love God with all your heart? Deut 6:5 -- abolished?
Love your neighbor as yourself ? Lev 19:18 -- abolished?

1Cor 7:19 "but what matters is keeping the Commandments of God"
Rom 3:31 "Do we then make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! in fact we ESTABLISH the Law of God"

What form of "Satisfy" are you using?

in Christ,

Bob

 

Satisfy as in the penalty, recall I said Christ fulfilled these requirements, not abolish. But, that means that we do not have to fulfill the requirements! of the law. The commandments you are referring to in 1Cor 7:19, are the first two you have listed in your post. If indeed you fulfill these, you have fulfilled the whole law. But that would not even be possible, if Christs death had not made it so.

The Sabbath law was given to the Hebrews only, as a sign of the covenant between God and the Nation of Israel. If you will search your bible you will find it, I am not telling you where it is.

 

Good job Samuel. You realize that you are wasting your time with this argument. Some cannot see that the Sabbath requirement was fulfilled in the person of Christ. They will debate you until the cows come home trying to add an unnecessary yoke around the necks of Christians.

 

I am certainly glad in Christ, we were relieved from such bondage. Paul warned the Colossians about another Gospel, or another Christ besides the one he had preached. Many Judaizers went about in that day corrupting the Gospel, saying that the Gentiles must also obey the law.

Evidently they are still with us. :smilewinkgrin:

 

Obeying the law of God is not foolishness and I seriously doubt Paul meant to say that. Course how dare you say it.

Here here GE!:thumbs:
I don't drink anyway and I'm not actually in Iraq, but I do know, everything I do contributes to war... well hopefully the prevention of a long one.

16Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

(context Colossians 2:6-23)

My view is that no specific day is required. One was at one point. Also, I was merely pointing out the reasons to worship on one or the other.

I know my Bible pretty well GE. Yes, the Sabbath was set aside, and I'm pretty sure Sunday never was.

For fellowship and rest perhaps, but worship is to be done EVERY day. Chuckle. I guess you miss spoke, or I'm reading wrong. Then again, fellowship is better done more than once a week as well.

Also, watch context, its actually 23-28:

23One Sabbath Jesus was going through the grainfields, and as his disciples walked along, they began to pick some heads of grain. 24The Pharisees said to him, "Look, why are they doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath?" 25He answered, "Have you never read what David did when he and his companions were hungry and in need? 26In the days of Abiathar the high priest, he entered the house of God and ate the consecrated bread, which is lawful only for priests to eat. And he also gave some to his companions."
27Then he said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. 28So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath."



Jesus was speaking of not being so rigid about the Sabbath, not what day it was on.

Samuel... was that meant to be an insult?

I know I'm not one of the Sabbath supporters right now, but that doesn't mean I can't defend them.

How dare you. It looks like you and I are either having a very hard time understanding eachother, or you need to think more about what you say.

Sabbath supporters do not, by means of only supporting worship on the true Sabbath, introducing a new Christ and you know it. Or do you actually make a habit of drawing such strange conclusions?

 

I see -- so our sin in violating -- breaking - rebelling against those portions of God's Word "His Law" is paid by Christ on the cross. Thus Christ satisfies the demands of God's Law for a penalty against all who transgress His Word.

Ok. Agreed.

Agreed. We are STILL to "Love our neighbor as ourselves" Lev 19:18 even though Christ PERFECTLY complied with that requirement of God's Word.

no problem with that doctrine -- agreed.

No "Loving our Neighbor as ourselves" Lev 19:18 ????

No "Loving God with all of our heart" Deut 6:8???

Open "rebellion" against the Word of God, the "Commandments of God" is now what God calls us to?

What about --

1Cor 7:19 "but what matters is keeping the Commandments of God"
Rom 3:31 "Do we then make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! in fact we ESTABLISH the Law of God"

Does God ever say "My Commandments have been downsized"??

1. Christ said that the WHOLE LAW DEPENDS on those two -- they are the foundational principles upon which ALL of God's commandments are based.

Christ never said "The law is ABOLISHED by these two commandments".

2. You just said Don't fulfill but now you say we MUST fulfill those two commandments -- didn't Jesus perfectly FULFILL those commandments?

Isaiah 66 "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to Worship"

Is that the text you are looking for??

in Christ,

Bob

 

Lets get one thing clear, it dosen't matter to me if you want to observe Monday, Sunday, Saturday, or any other day in the week.

But when you tell me it is a law, and I must observe the Sabbath (Saturday) or my relationship to God is all wrong. Then it becomes a different matter all together. And another Christ, of whom I do not know.

You had better watch who you support, or did you not know you are guilty of the same things you support others in.

By freedom of choice, if one desires to worship on Saturday that's fine. But if by the constriction of a Mosaic law, that's not fine. That denies the finished work of Christ on the Cross, and puts him to open shame. Friend that is an abomination. Or do you knot understand Hebrews chapter 6. Well I guess not, not many do.

Oh! Isaiah is not the right book. And there is no need to dig at me further, I have said all I have to say. The reference you made to Isaiah is a yet to be fulfilled prophesy, and has nothing to do with today.

 

GE

How nearly do you see in this post!
Jesus is love, in giving Himself = fulfilling = abolishing .... Himself. Loving = Laying down His Life = abolishing it = crucifying in Himself the Law = the Word of God. Without having given Himself, Christ could not have fulfilled; could not have taken up; could never share, his Life or give His Love to another.

It is the very thing the Sanctuary = the Heavenly Sanctuary = 'inside Jesus' (your words) = the full Fellowship of God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The thing is the same as God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit In Raising Christ From The Dead = as receiving the spirit of the Son in dying as in the Hand of God, the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit. As the Being of God is Three in One, so are His Works - nowhere so closely knit together than in the death and resurrection of Christ from the dead.

You, seeing but the lonely figure of the Son, have seen nothing yet; You not having beheld the Law of God abolished, have seen nothing yet of its fulfilment, its freedom, yet.

 

Another guy who doesn't care WHAT people actually say, he's just gonna fight his straw man.

No one said your relationship with God is all wrong, they're just saying you got this detail wrong. YOU ARE THE ONE SAYING THEY HAVE IT ALL WRONG.

YOU ARE THE ONE SAYING THEY ARE PREACHING A DIFFERENT CHRIST!

Indeed you are, but if this is addressed at me, at the moment, I would rather support the sabbath guys than you right now. They have a detail wrong, YOU are wrong. Either that or you're having a hard time reading and explaining yourself.

So let me get this straight. I dishonor God by worshipping Him on Saturday? Or is it that they have a missunderstanding that condemns them? Is your God so finiky that them thinking they need to worship on Saturday keeps Him up nights? If you woke up one day with a hankering for KFC and confused it with a desire to worship on Thrusday, I wouldn't have a problem with it. In the end it porbably obligates them to worship more often. TRUTH be told, no one here sacrifices goats and bulls so I'm guessing no one is trying to say you must obey the entire Mosaic law, the discussion is over a detail. What gets me is, you CAN'T actually mean this stuff.

An abomination? Missunderstand which part? The part about the elightened, if they fall away not being able to come back? Maybe the part about God's oath? Did you actually READ Hebrews 6 before you slapped it up there? Because I see nothing relivent to this converstation at all.

That's actually right, Isaiah 66, in the part that quote comes from is a prophecy. Good job. :thumbs:

 

And the very thing applies to you, Darren!

If by 'freedom of choice', one desire to worship on Saturday that's Not fine' - it is by the compulsion of sinful nature. That denies the finished work of Christ on the Cross, and puts him to open shame.

"Friend that is an abomination." Yes, and so was Jesus Christ made an open shame, an abomination, indeed, was He made sin -- for to forgive our sins. You don't find Jesus Christ The Stone of Offense"?, then you have not met up against Him, and have seen nothing of the salvation of your soul yet."

Come, knot together Hebrews chapter 6 properly!

 

Darren:
"For fellowship and rest perhaps, but worship is to be done EVERY day. Chuckle. I guess you miss spoke, or I'm reading wrong. Then again, fellowship is better done more than once a week as well."

"Therefore (i.e., because ot the fact "Jesus had given them - His People - rest" verse 8) there remains valid the Keeping of the Sabbath Day for the People of God".

Paul says we one should "Always pray"; that annuls not the People as the People of God, that is, the Teh People of God in Holy Convocation on His Sabbath Day of Worship-Rest should not also pray.

 

GE, PLEASE, PLEASE PLEASE, use spelling and grammar check, it's very hard to follow you.


I think you just agreed that we should always pray.

Then quoted Samuel as me... um... I'm probably about to get a time out because of how frustrated I'm getting with Sameul. Do I write in a manner so hard to understand?

And what in the world does this mean?

 

Darren:
"I know my Bible pretty well GE. Yes, the Sabbath was set aside, and I'm pretty sure Sunday never was. "

GE:

How do you understand the Scriptures? Do you begin from Genesis then go on to the End Time Gospel; or the other way round? In other words, Is your view of the Bible Christo-centric; Is it 'Christological' or 'nomological' for these are the only and mutually exclusive ways of approach.

If Christological, then do you find the Sabbath Day appointed in the New Testament? If you do, I won't have any further questions.

May I tell you that I find the Seventh Day Sabbath the very Institution of Jesus Christ in person God with men. Secondly I find this very Institution confirmed in Apostolic life and Faith.

Now from these findings, I go to the Old Testament, and there find the same Truth Promised, Covenanted, Sworn with and Oath of the Word of God. And I deduce: Never has the Seventh Day Sabbath of the LORD your God been obligatory to any men who ever lived, had it not been "Validly been standing for the People of God" of New Testament times - the Christian Era, firstly, mostly and conditionally.