Sacrements vs Ordininace

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Salty, Dec 13, 2009.

  1. Salty

    Salty
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    #1 Salty, Dec 13, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 13, 2009
  2. Zenas

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    Sacrament: an outward and visible sign of an inward and invisible Grace. Take baptism for example. By passing through the baptismal waters, the candidate receives graces that remit original and temporal sin. He dies to the old life and begins a new life with a clean slate. Sacraments are always signified with a visible sign--water, annointing, laying on of hands, etc. Jesus occasionally made use of sacraments, such as spitting on dirt to make mud that He applied to the blind man's eyes.

    Ordinance: A practice observed by Christians in obdience to Christ's command. Again looking at baptism, the candidate passes through the waters as a symbol of dying to the old life and rising into the new. It is a public statement of his belief in Christ but there is no actual transmission of grace during the process.
     
  3. donnA

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    if you earn grace it isn't grace anymore
     
  4. Zenas

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    Please cite the words in my post where I said grace can be earned.
     
  5. donnA

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    ...................................
     
  6. Chemnitz

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    The definition of a sacrament is a rite originated by Christ, that includes the promise of forgiveness and a physical element. There are two sacraments Baptism and Holy Communion. These things are not earned but rather are given freely. Jesus spiting in the mud is not a sacrament.

    The definition of an ordinance is a law one must follow to be in good standing.
     
  7. Matt Black

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    Sorry, still don't see any mention of earned grace here.
     
  8. JohnDeereFan

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    The simplest answer is that a sacrament is meant to be salvific in nature, while an ordinance is meant to be memorial in nature.
     
  9. annsni

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    If you don't get baptized, you don't receive remission of sin.

    If you do get baptized, you do.

    That's earning, IMO. Baptism=salvation.
     
  10. Matt Black

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    It's a means of communication of grace which God has provided freely for us.
     
  11. Zenas

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    Don't get me started here. We're talking about the differences between a sacrament and an ordinance, not whether the sacraments actually have salvific value.
     
  12. ReformedBaptist

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    Both Baptism and Communion have no salvific value or merit. God does not communicate salvation by the means of sacraments. He has communicated, 100%, the Salvation of Christ through faith. The one who believes, trusts in, hopes in, Christ Jesus alone has eternal life.

    THis does not mean that the Lord's Table and Baptism are not encouraging to one's faith, strengthening to them, et. But we are complete in Christ Jesus by grace alone through faith alone.
     
  13. FriendofSpurgeon

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    Here is a good definition of sacraments from the Westminster Confession --

    Sacraments are holy signs and seals of the covenant of grace, immediately instituted by God, to represent Christ and His benefits; and to confirm our interest in Him: as also, to put a visible difference between those that belong unto the Church and the rest of the world; and solemnly to engage them to the service of God in Christ, according to His Word. There is, in every sacrament, a spiritual relation, or sacramental union, between the sign and the thing signified: whence it comes to pass, that the names and effects of the one are attributed to the other. The grace which is exhibited in or by the sacraments rightly used, is not conferred by any power in them; neither does the efficacy of a sacrament depend upon the piety or intention of him that does administer it: but upon the work of the Spirit, and the word of institution, which contains, together with a precept authorizing the use thereof, a promise of benefit to worthy receivers. There are only two sacraments ordained by Christ our Lord in the Gospel; that is to say, Baptism, and the Supper of the Lord: neither of which may be dispensed by any, but by a minister of the Word lawfully ordained.

    A whole lot less is written in the London Confession regarding ordinances ---

    Baptism and the Lord's Supper are ordinances of positive and sovereign institution, appointed by the Lord Jesus, the only lawgiver, to be continued in his church to the end of the world.

     
  14. Salty

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    First, this is a debate form, so feel free to get "started". (just don't say I am wrong :smilewinkgrin: :laugh: )

    Second, there are many religions/denominations that DO believe some actions are required for salvation such as baptism (aka sprinkling) good works, ect.

    Thus the difference in the two meanings of the words.

    Salty
     
  15. Doubting Thomas

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    +1.

    What folks here fail to grasp is the distinction between doing something to earn salvation and receiving salvation (already earned) by means of a sacramental act.

    Perhaps an illustration is in order. Suppose I was sick with a very rare and fatal disease and the only cure was to dipped in this chemical bath that was very expensive, much more than I could ever afford. Now suppose that some benefactor--in fact, the very person who had invented it and provided all the resources for funding it--had paid for this for me, and all I had to do was show up and allow myself to be submerged in this chemical bath. I would be healed of my disease through my act of submersion in the bath, but I would have in no way earned or payed for my healing. Someone else did that.

    Likewise it is with baptism. Peter states the baptism 'saves us' by the resurrection of Christ (1 Peter 3:21). Christ paid for (earned) all of our salvation with His perfect obedience to the Father culminating in His sacrificial death on the cross and vindicated by His resurrection from the dead. We merely receive the saving benefit of His Person and Work when we are baptized into Christ (Romans 6:3-5; Col 2:12, Gal 3:27) in which we are raised with Him through faith in the working of God (Col 2:12) and our sins are washed away (Acts 22:16).
     
  16. ReformedBaptist

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    Actually, many of us, if not most of us, do grasp that. We understand that is what the papists and others teach. What we are saying is that we reject it on the basis of Scripture.
     
  17. Agnus_Dei

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    :thumbsup: right on DT...great way to look at this...thanks for the illustration!

    In XC
    -
     
  18. annsni

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    However, what is not being taught is that we're healed BEFORE the dunking. The dunking is an outward sign of a change within.
     
  19. Marcia

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    I agree. This is why many do not believe in using sacraments or that they are biblical. Baptism is the symbol or sign of an inward change, just as circumcision was. Baptism is commanded, however, and is an ordinance.
     
  20. targus

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    And if someone refuses dunking?

    Would we say that person is still saved?

    It all sounds kind of circular to me - and I am not sure that we are any of us in any position to say who is or is not saved.

    I am really uncomfortable with declaring whole groups as not saved just on that basis alone.
     

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