Salvation and sin

Maybe he failed to go over in Macedonia (sp), you think?

Sure we sin and can't go to Heaven in these bodies, we must die, so this corruptle puts on incorruptle and this mortal puts on immortality. Then we will not fail to go over in Macedonia or wherever the Lord is.

You need to teach men and women, that if they give their lives to Christ, that He will care for them and keep them from the devil and deliver them to Heaven. Tell them they will not be perfect in this life, but they will not return unto perdition either, and in the end, God will even raise their bodies from the grave and then they will be perfect, both inwardly and outwardly.

You see DHK; we have several churches and we all live this way, so I know men can do it. You just have to lead them in the right direction.

God Bless,

BBob, raying:

 

Hi:

I have not interacted with any one at BB that holds to the Hodges, Wilkin, and GES view of sin. But, the GES is very aggressive in propagating their egregious errors and I want to warn others that this teaching is out there.


LM

 

He referred to many sins. "The thing(S) that I do..."
In 1Cor.7 he touches on many sexual sins that he himself could relate to. He no doubt had some problem in this area previously. Even now as a single man it was possible that he could still have thoughts that were immoral. He was only a mortal man.
Previously, being on the Sanhedrin, he no doubt was married, that being a requirement for membership on that council. It would be an amazing feat of wonder if he did not have problems in the flesh.
In fact the Lord sent him a "thorn in the flesh" to keep him humble, to remind him that he still was a sinner, in spite of the spiritual gifts that he had and the good that he was doing.

You assume too much. The Lord is everywhere. You are allegorizing the Bible. The Lord was with Paul no matter where he went. Paul did not sin in not going to Macedonia in that particular situation. The Holy Spirit directed him elsewhere. Are you confining God? Now that is sin! When you allegorize the Bible in that sense you may as well allegorize the entire sacrifice of Christ, and be like the J.W.'s and believe that Christ only rose in spirit, not in body. That is their take on Scripture. It is their way of spiritualizing the Scripture. This is what you are doing.

"You need to..." I don't need your instruction Bob. I believe you are teaching a false doctrine that takes away from the sufficiency of Christ and leads to a religion of works. I stay away from it. When a person receives Christ as Saviour he will still retain his old sin nature. He will still sin. He will struggle with it all of his life just as Paul did. The Apostle John warned that he would. Thus John wrote:

1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
--John new that the believer would sin. John tells us that the Lord made a provision for the believers' sin. Even now the Lord Jesus Christ sits on the right hand of God making intercession for the believer. Why would he be doing that Bob. He is our Great High Priest. Why would John write:

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

You put yourself in the place of God and that is blasphemy. You pretend to know the hearts of mankind, and that is blasphemy. It is blasphemy because it something that only God can do. Listen to what the Bible says:

Jeremiah 17:9-10 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
10 I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.
--Who knows the heart of man? Not man! The answer is given in verse 10. "I the Lord search the heart." Only the Lord knows the heart, not Bob!
--How do you know what goes on behind the closed doors of the members of your church?
How do you know when their spouses are angry with each other, when words are exchanged that should have never been said?
How do you know if a young man's eyes stray off and look at a young man, and they just happen to lust after her (committing that horrible sin that you keep referring to--adultery)
How do you know when one of your members becomes angry with his brother and commits the sin of murder?
How do you know when the members of your church either tell a lie, or engage in gossip?
How do you know when the members of your church covet--see something in a store that they know that they can't have but wish that they could.

Are you omniscient Bob? How do you know all these things? Do you play the part of God in pretending to know the hearts of the members of your church.

"The heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked, who can know it." The answer is "Not Bob!"

The fact is Bob, that not only do your members commit all these sins but you probably do too, but are just too self-righteous to admit it. In fact, you would never admit publicly on the internet in such a place as the Baptist Board, would you? But some day every secret thing shall be made manifest, put in the open for all to see.
Every man shall give account of himself to God. And I doubt if it will be a private showing.

 

so....we can't provide a scriptural list of "sins unto death?"

Did God just leave that up to us to figure out?
What if your list is different than my list?
And since Scripture doesn't give us the list...how could we decide whose "list" is correct?

If we start with the 10 commandments and go from there...how does that line up with Jesus' expounding on them in the Sermon on the Mount's "you have heard....but I say unto you" section? That seems to blow that theory right out of the water.

We keep coming back to the same thing: you dwell on adultery, etc., but 1 Cor. 6 and Rev. 21 put those "other sins" such as lying, fearfulness, unbelief--right in the same camp.

I sure would like to see that scriptural list of "sins unto death..."

 

[if you can't respond to the post, please avoid the personal attacks]

BBob,

 

Another self-righteous, omniscient judgement of the heart of man.

 

BBob, I too will like to know what those sins unto death are. Thank you.

 

You openly accuse me and tell me that Bob can not know these things and then you turn around and hypocritically say you can. hogwash. IMO

You are supposed to be reaching out to the lost, but instead, you spend your time being self righteous and trying to bring down a Pastor of many years. Jeepers, I am sure you must be proud.

All your statements are your own prejudices and self appointed positions. They are not scripture and as I said before, we shall be held accountable for every word that proceeds from our mouths, and that includes you for sure. IMO

 

Surprised you don't know TC:

Hbr 8:10 For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Hbr 10:16 This [is] the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

Jhn 15:22If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin.

Ti 2:
11: For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12: Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
13: Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
14: Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

It must tell you what ungodliness is before teaching you to deny it.

BBob,

 

First up, the expression "sin unto death" is based on 1 John 5.

I don't understand how these references from the book of Hebrews answer that question.

 

Does raping a 5 year old girl bring death without repentance??

Do you think God's law varies from book to book?

TC; Do you believe a person must be in posession of a Bible, before he can commit a sin that would send him to hell without repentance???

 

I don't understand this question.

Yes, I see in Scripture.

Even a man with a Bible and a lot of it memorized can be on his way to hell.

 

There are many messengers of Satan. God allowed Satan to tempt Job. Much of the sin in man’s life is a direct result of Satan’s messengers, though not all of it.

You are basically being silly. You have not shown where he did not commit a sin unto death, and was consequently forgiven. In fact you have never given any such list of a sin unto death. You have only been condescending to those who have asked for such a list, which is a sin in itself. (perhaps even unto death—since all sin is equal in God’s sight, unless you are a Roman Catholic. They are the ones that categorize sins like you appear to be doing.

Yes, that is their take on that particular view of Scripture. But you are doing the same type of thing; taking the same approach to Scripture. Augustine and Origen (both heretics) did the same thing. They allegorized Scripture. Can you demonstrate through Scripture that Macedonia was the place where God is, and the rest of the world where God was not?

Actually I don’t know what you are talking about. Here is what happened.

Acts 16:9-10 And a vision appeared to Paul in the night; There stood a man of Macedonia, and prayed him, saying, Come over into Macedonia, and help us.
And after he had seen the vision, immediately we endeavoured to go into Macedonia, assuredly gathering that the Lord had called us for to preach the gospel unto them.
--They did exactly what the Lord told them to do. It sounds like you are making up fables, or don’t know your Bible very well.

What are sins unto death? Do you decide Bob? Or does God? It seems as if you have placed yourself in the place of God, since you haven’t been able to provide a list but just arbitrarily say that a person has committed a sin unto death and one hasn’t. That is God’s duty not man’s. Why are you playing God? Isn’t that blasphemy? I would say it is.

I would say there is more misunderstanding on salvation and the Christian walk on your part. We confess our sins on a daily basis not because we have lost our salvation (those sins are under the blood), but because we must renew our fellowship with God. I will always be the son of my father. Nothing can change that fact. However I may do something that will offend him and cause a separation to come between the two of us. Unless I confess what I have done and ask forgiveness from him, our fellowship with each other may not be restored, but I will always remain his child no matter what happens. The same is true with our heavenly Father.

[/quote]
No. I quote a Scripture that says what God says, not what you want it to say. It says that ALL hearts, not some hearts are deceitful. That includes your heart Bob. Don’t try to escape from Scripture.

That is the height of arrogance Bob, and it is your claim to omniscience which is an attribute of God alone. This is your claim to Godhood, which is blasphemy. The heart (all hearts including yours) is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked.

You cannot see all of their fruits Bob. You are not omniscient. You don’t know what goes on behind closed doors. Please don’t tell me that you do.

Demonstrate it. It is descriptive of every man’s heart.

I never said I can know the heart of man. I can only quote what the Bible says. The Bible says that no man can know the heart of man, as you claim that you can. The Bible claims that all men sin. You claim you don’t. The Bible doesn’t make a list of sins unto death. You claim you have one, but can’t produce one. The Bible says that all sins are equal in God’s sight. You claim that they are not. The Bible teaches that it is just as bad to lie as it is to murder. You say it is not. What am I to believe Bob? The Bible or you? I go with the Bible!

 

Yes, but you fail to answer the simple question, does a man have to have a Bible, to sin a sin unto death and without repentance, will be lost. I can see why you don't answer though. I suspect you do know the answer to the questions I ask you about rape also.

BBob,

 

No. I quote a Scripture that says what God says, not what you want it to say. It says that ALL hearts, not some hearts are deceitful. That includes your heart Bob. Don’t try to escape from Scripture.

You may have a decietful heart, I don't think I do. IMO

That is the height of arrogance Bob, and it is your claim to omniscience which is an attribute of God alone. This is your claim to Godhood, which is blasphemy. The heart (all hearts including yours) is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked.
You cannot see all of their fruits Bob. You are not omniscient. You don’t know what goes on behind closed doors. Please don’t tell me that you do. It is for sure you can't see their hearts or fruits, but yet you are willing to call them evil.

Wonder why scripture tells us we shall know a tree by the fruit it bears. either the scripture is right or you are. I take the scripture.

Demonstrate it. It is descriptive of every man’s heart.
I never said I can know the heart of man. I can only quote what the Bible says. The Bible says that no man can know the heart of man, as you claim that you can. The Bible claims that all men sin. You claim you don’t. The Bible doesn’t make a list of sins unto death. You claim you have one, but can’t produce one. The Bible says that all sins are equal in God’s sight. You claim that they are not. The Bible teaches that it is just as bad to lie as it is to murder. You say it is not. What am I to believe Bob? The Bible or you? I go with the Bible![/quote] The bold is you calling me a liar again and you know I have stated over and over that we sin, but you want people to think when they read this, that I am saying a Christian cannot sin. It is your words, not mine.

Yes, you did say you knew the heart of my members, that they were all decietful. You also said you know my heart that I and my members are guilty of all kinds of sin. That is hogwash on your part.

You ramble on and go off the deep end so much, its hard to converse with you. TC did the same, simple questions I asked him, but he just plainly refused to answer.

Again DHK; you need to be up and about your Father's business and that is to try to reach the world of sinners and try to get them to repent and believe in Christ, instead of spending your time trying to tear down an Old Pastor of many years, who is able to decipher scripture much better than you, by the help of the Good Lord Himself. He told me that He would give me what to say to my adversaries, and He does.

Sins unto death are unrepented sins. All of them, which are not covered by our advocate and chastement.

BTW, you never did give an answer if adultery will send you to hell, if unrepented of?


BBob,

 

I don't remember the question being asked of me. Perhaps it was and I over-looked it. But I will give you an answer. How well do you understand the atonement? I explained this concept in the Other Christian Denominations Forum. It is a misunderstood doctrine by many. Perhaps if I explain your question in the light of the Atonement you will better understand my answer.

Romans 5:10-11 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

This is the only time in the NT that the word "atonement" is found. It means "reconciliation." In fact that is the way that the Geneva Bible translates it. However, it is the means of reconciliation, not the result. Other words connected with the atonement are: propitiation or satisfaction, a covering.

A good picture of the Atonement is given in the OT during the Passover. A lamb, by each household had to be shed. The blood was the payment for the sin. Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin. Without the blood there could be no reconciliation. Blood was the payment. But it wasn't just the blood that was needed. The blood had to be applied by each individual. Each house had to take that blood and put it on the posts of their house and on the lintel above. Then when the death angel flew over the houses that night; when he saw the blood he passed over those houses. They were protected by the blood. The blood acted as a covering for those who believed. All of their sins were under the blood. They were under God's protection. Those who were not suffered the terrible consequences of God's judgment.

The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. A wage is something I deserve, something that I work for. I deserve eternal death, eternal separation from God. It is a wage that I cannot pay, and that I do not want. The good news is that Christ loved me enough to pay the penalty for me.

The atonement is a literal payment for my sins. Christ paid the price of my sins literally with his blood. When his blood was shed it satisfied the legal demands of God.
IJohn 2:2 says:
1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

--It was literal and personal. Propitiation means satisfaction. He satisfied the demands of God from a legal perspective. He paid the penalty, a penalty that I could never pay. It was personal. If I was the only person on the face of this world Jesus Christ loved me (or you) enough that he would have come and died just for me. It was an intensely personal love.

--It was a collective love. "And not for ours only but for the sins of the whole world." He shed his blood for the sins of the whole world. He paid for them all--every one of them--adultery, drunkeness, murder, sorcery, incest, the worst sins you could ever think of, Jesus paid for them all with his blood. There is not one sin that Jesus never paid for. He paid for them all with his blood. He paid the penalty for all of our sins. He could do that for two reasons:
1. He was the only one to live a sinless life.
2. He was God.

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

1 Peter 2:22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
1 Peter 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

He paid the penalty for our sins, no matter how bad they would be, with his own blood.
He paid the penalty of them all: past, present and future.
Our sins are covered by the blood of Christ.

The wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Since he has paid for my sins, and I have applied that blood to my life, he has given me eternal life as a gift--a gift that can never be taken away. If it could be taken away it would no longer be eternal, and Christ would be a liar. Eternal only has one meaning--eternal, everlasting, without end; not temporary.

In the atonement all my sins are covered. They are paid for. Thus if a Christian were to commit the sin of adultery and not repent before he die, he would still go to heaven. His sins are under the blood. God already took care of them. If you claim that he would have to repent in order for him to go to heaven, then you insult Christ and have made Christianity into a religion of works. You are basically telling Christ that His work of atonement is not sufficient. His blood was not enough to pay the full atonement, to satisfy the demands of God. Man has to pay his own part in the plan of God's salvation. Man has to repent before he goes to heaven.
That denies what the Bible says:

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Repentance is a work. If man had to repent salvation would not be by grace through faith; it would be by works. And man would get to heaven and boast about what he had done to help Jesus pay for our sins. What blasphemy that would be. I for one, would not want to live in a heaven like that.

 

BBob,

1. What does the Bible say is the "sin unto death"? Notice that it is singluar "sin unto death."

2. Are God's people commanded to go and wipe out the Amalekites or the Hittites, If your understanding of God is the same yesterday, today and forever?

I'm interested in what the Bible has to say not opinions driven by emotions or the like.

 

So am I and will unrepented adultery send you to hell?? Adultery is a singular act, that can be done over and over, but if you are guilty of "one" then you are guilty of all. See what I mean? A singular act, can make you guilty of all.

BBob,

 

The only sin that will send a person to hell is rejection of Christ as Saviour.
Unrepented adultery, therefore will not.