Salvation by Works.....or Not?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Heavenly Pilgrim, Sep 2, 2007.

  1. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2006
    Messages:
    9,295
    Likes Received:
    0

    Is the will of man involved in the salvation process or not? For instance, StandingfirminChrist proclaims, (and rightfully so I might add) that one cannot just say a simple prayer of “I believe” and expect to be saved. He states that one must ‘trust’ as well as merely assent to knowledge as being true.

    My question, is whether or not the will of man is involved in trusting, or if trust is not just something God either zaps you with or not? Since he avoids the questions I ask him concerning this, I thought I might ask the list.

    So many times I have hear on this list those claiming that salvation is all of God and none of man, and that we have nothing to do with our salvation, etc. Even when one mentions the Scriptural mandate of repentance, we heard the cry of, “If you think you need to repent in order to be saved, you believe in salvation by works!” Now here comes along SFIC stating that ‘we’ need to trust, which of necessity involves an act of the will, and I hear no one claiming that he is preaching salvation by works. Why? Why the double standard? Why can a Calvinist preach that man’s will is involved in salvation and all is well, but if an Arminian or someone such as myself states that man’s will must be involved in salvation with such things as repentance, faith, or perseverence, the cry is shouted, “You are preaching salvation by works!”

    Help me out here. Is mans will involved in salvation or are we just passive?
     
  2. ByGracethroughFaith

    ByGracethroughFaith
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2007
    Messages:
    283
    Likes Received:
    0
    Some men believe trust is given of God, others believe trust is entirely up to them. Since John 3:8 tells us we can’t tell ‘whence it cometh’, what really matters that we actually do trust. Seeing such depravity in ourselves, the greater our trust is, the more likely we will want to look outside of ourselves for the cause of it.

    John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

    Support that it is of God alone.
    John 1:12-13 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

    Support that it is man’s choice alone.
    2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.


    The Bible teaches that there is an overlap, but no matter how you understand it, the fact is that knowing, believing, and trusting are not in any way meritorious works.

    Ps 34:22 The LORD redeemeth the soul of his servants: and none of them that trust in him shall be desolate.


    BGTF
     
  3. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2006
    Messages:
    9,295
    Likes Received:
    0




    HP: Why cannot the same be said of repentance, or remaining faithful? They are not meritorious either, for no amount of proper behavior or righteousness can atone for the least of sins. Just the same, as it can be said that no man will be saved apart from exercising his will in trust, no man will be saved apart from exercising their will in relationship to repentance or in continuing to exercise their will in obedience.
     
  4. ByGracethroughFaith

    ByGracethroughFaith
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2007
    Messages:
    283
    Likes Received:
    0
    You can say the same of many of them, all that really matters is do you personally trust God?

    If so, then whatever your understanding of how you obtained that trust doesn't really matter, what matters is that you trust Him to give you EVERLASTING life, and keep you like He says He will.

    John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

    Jude 24-25 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, 25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.


    BGTF
     
  5. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2006
    Messages:
    9,295
    Likes Received:
    0


    HP: Does trust involve one formulating intents in accordance to what God commands?
     
  6. Cutter

    Cutter
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2006
    Messages:
    1,564
    Likes Received:
    0
    Romans 10:8 But what saith it ? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

    10:9 That if thou shalt confesswith thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

    10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
     
  7. larryjf

    larryjf
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2005
    Messages:
    306
    Likes Received:
    0
    Our will is involved with everything that we do, including salvation...but i think our will in this context is often misunderstood.

    With our own free will we contantly deny Christ and salvation until the Holy Spirit comes and regenerates us...then we freely submit to Christ and His Lordship, and are saved.

    Our free will is always in submission to our nature. Before we are regenerated our nature is at enmity against God, after we are regenerated we are given a new nature.
     
  8. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    #1. is "belief in Christ" ever called "salvation by works" in scripture? -- no.

    #2. Can one be "saved by works" given that fact that all have sinned and so all are doomed to the lake of fire without a Savior? No.

    #3. Can salvation be granted on any OTHER basis other than "by grace through faith and that not of works lest anyone should boast"? No.

    It is the ONE gospel effective in ALL ages!

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  9. standingfirminChrist

    standingfirminChrist
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2005
    Messages:
    9,454
    Likes Received:
    0
    We had a visiting Minister at our Fellowship today. This man is a retired Master Diver for the US Navy.

    He gave a great illustration to show that man has a part. He used a rope and a lifering.

    He showed that Jesus, the Captaion sees a man overboard in the drowning in the sea of sin. He casts out the lifering. Now this is a picture of the gospel reaching the drowning man. The man now has a choice, doesn't he? He can take the gospel unto himself and allow the Lord to do the work, or the man can push the ring away and refuse to be saved.

    The work is on the behalf of both. Man has a will. He can either accept the gospel and trust that Jesus the Captain will pull him out of the dark sea of sin and sorrow (which Jesus has promised to do for all who will trust Him), or he can reject the gospel and continue to drown.
     
  10. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    good illustration.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  11. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2006
    Messages:
    9,295
    Likes Received:
    0


    HP: Isn’t this interesting. If a Calvinist says it is the truth. If an Arminian would say it he would be told that he believes that man has something to do with his salvation, and as such believes in salvation by works. :confused:
     
  12. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2006
    Messages:
    9,295
    Likes Received:
    0

    HP: I would say that you have it exactly backwards. God calls upon man to first repent and THEN He regenerates man and we enter into our hope of eternal life. Man has to reach for that life raft for regenration to take place in this heart, THEN he is born again.
     
  13. standingfirminChrist

    standingfirminChrist
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2005
    Messages:
    9,454
    Likes Received:
    0
    Man, even in his sinful state, has a free will. Why would Jesus throw out a lifeline if He did not want man to be saved from the sea of sin?

    If you say man did not have a free will that God did not want him to grab the lifeline, then it would have been foolish for God to offer it if He did not mean for the man to grab it.

    If you say God meant for the man to grab it and the man would not grab it, you have just realized man has a free will. He can accept or reject the gospel.

    The lifeline is the cross and Christ's shed blood, a perfect picture of the scarlet thread of redemption. Christ went to the cross and died for the whole world that they through Him might be saved.

    Many refuse that lifeline. Many refuse to hear the gospel.

    It is not that the Words of the Lord are not there for all, it is that not all have a desire to hear the Word. They have not a love for the truth.
     
  14. LeBuick

    LeBuick
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2006
    Messages:
    11,537
    Likes Received:
    0
    Preach on my Brother, Preach on!!!
     
  15. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    Hmm - are we all agreeing on this one?

    I would have thought that at least one 4-pt or 5pt Calvinist would have shown up by now.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  16. larryjf

    larryjf
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2005
    Messages:
    306
    Likes Received:
    0
    The Bible says nowhere that we repent before regeneration...if i am mistaken please site a verse.
    We are called to repent and believe, but God must regenerate us first othewise we are dead in our sins. A dead man can do nothing before he is regenerated.

    But our free will is always a servant to our nature. And in our sinful state our nature is anti-God and pro-sin.

    If everybody has a natural choice to come to Christ and it doesn't have to happen after regeneration, then there is something inherently better in those of us who chose Christ that is not in those who have not.
     
  17. larryjf

    larryjf
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2005
    Messages:
    306
    Likes Received:
    0
    I am a 5 pointer.
     
  18. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    Your 5-pt position is noted.

    Thanks for pointing that out.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  19. standingfirminChrist

    standingfirminChrist
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2005
    Messages:
    9,454
    Likes Received:
    0
    so, larry, you are saying that Christ is throwing out the lifeline foolishly? Sorry, but I have to strongly disagree.

    The Word tells us that Christ shed His blood for the sins of the whole world. Not some, not few, but all.

    Christ throws out the lifeline. He gives us the Gospel. It is up to us to grab that lifeline and be pulled in to safety.
     
  20. larryjf

    larryjf
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2005
    Messages:
    306
    Likes Received:
    0
    No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
    (Joh 6:44)
     

Share This Page

Loading...