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Salvation by Works.....or Not?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Heavenly Pilgrim, Sep 2, 2007.

  1. standingfirminChrist

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    Christ did pay for the sins of mankind on the cross. If any man goes to hell, he goes with his sins already paid for. What they go to hell for is rejecting the Son and the offer of eternal life through His shed blood.

    Christ offers this to all. He was lifted up and He does draw all men unto Him, but many resist that drawing.

    Remember what He told the Pharisees?

    He told them that the Scripture they held to be honored and revered testified of Himself. But then, He went on to say:

    Life was offered to them, but they would not come to Him for life.
     
    #101 standingfirminChrist, Sep 5, 2007
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2007
  2. Dan V.

    Dan V. New Member

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    Once again (and not surprisingly) you have failed to comment on the scriptures I mentioned in the previous post, because you can't. It's impossible.

    As for your statement that "men go to hell for rejecting the Son", it is evident that you have not thought this through.

    Men go to hell because they die in their sins.

    If they happen to hear the gospel and reject Christ, their sin is compounded.

    Thus, if your statement is true:

    "...What they go to hell for is rejecting the Son and the offer of eternal life through His shed blood..."

    Then why bother preaching the gospel? Those who haven't heard the gospel will then not be guilty of rejecting something which they have not heard.

    Look at it this way:

    How do you account for the fact that you've recieved Christ and your unsaved neighbor who has heard the gospel has not?

    Sincerely,

    Dan V.
     
  3. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

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    HP: Although I agree with you here, as you have so far expressed your views, I believe I can assume that you would also believe in double predestination, i.e., predestination of the damned as well as the saved. Am I not right? May I ask you, what kind of a god would create and predestine a creature that had absolutely no choice in being a sinner, refuse to even allow for the possibility of an escape, and then torment them in an eternal hell for being and acting in accordance to the very thing they were created for?




    HP: Why preach the gospel if in fact only those predestined to salvation will respond, and their response is NOT due to your preaching but rather due to being necessitated as saved due to election? If I am hearing you right it is absolutely impossible for one that has been predestined to miss or lose salvation , so again, why preach the gospel? Are you going to tell us that your efforts have something to do with the salvation of souls? Is that not salvation by your works?



    HP:I would respond, I have repented of my sins and looked to Christ in faith, and have the present testimony within my heart that have and am born again. My unsaved neighbor will have to tell you for himself why he has either failed to hear the gospel preached or has refuse to accept the offer and fulfill the conditions God has mandated in order to be saved. I trust that they will have the opportunity to respond to the gospel by my contact with them. I hope that I have lived an exemplary life before them that would encourage them to desire the life that I live before God.


     
  4. Linda64

    Linda64 New Member

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    The Bible does not teach that man is unable to respond to the Gospel. Just the opposite is true--the Bible teaches that God gives light to every man (John 1:9) and draws ALL men unto Himself (John 12:32). He convicts men through the Holy Spirit (John 16:8). Double predestination is unbiblical.

    That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. John 1:9

    And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. John 12:32

    And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: John 16:8
     
  5. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

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    HP: I agree. Double predestination is the necessitated logical outcome of believing that God has to regenerate man in order for man to be saved, among other beliefs.

    Let me ask some questions. Is there anything man has to do in order to be saved? Are their conditions that one must fulfill in order to be saved? Is man, in his natural state able to hear and respond to the gospel without receiving special enabling grace to respond? When the gospel is presented, does sinful man honestly have a choice in either accepting or rejecting God’s offer, or is he necessitated to respond in agreement with God’s foreknowledge? Is man the actual cause of his choices or are they in actuality nothing more than the necessitated outcome of choices God has predetermined would come about, and as such God being the and only actual cause?
     
  6. Dan V.

    Dan V. New Member

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    Here's a few additional scripture thus far ignored:

    John 6:44 'No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him.."

    This text shows man's lack of ability in his own nature.

    John 17:9 "I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine."

    So much for the 'God loves everyone the same' idea! Here's is the effectual working of grace on some. Not all.

    Sincerely,

    Dan V.
     
  7. Dan V.

    Dan V. New Member

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    You are asking the right questions. The natural man is dead towards loving God (Gen 2:17). Saved men are described as being previously dead, and then being made alive (quickened)

    Eph. 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;


    Why do I bother with all of this discussion? Because God does it all. He is the cause. Our wills are the effect. And most importantly.... God gets all the glory! None to you and me. Those who think they are saved because they made a choice, haven't fully comprehended the power of the gospel.

    Respectfully,

    Dan V.
     
  8. standingfirminChrist

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    The drawing has been done. You seem to be ignoring Jesus' promise, "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, I will draw all men unto me." The Lord was lifted up, on the cross. And He is not a liar contrary to what you are trying to say. He is drawing all men, not just some.
     
  9. Dan V.

    Dan V. New Member

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    Again, you have not compared scripture with scripture. Jesus drawing all men to himself means all types of men...Jew and gentile. This is how this passage plays out when considered with numerous other scriptures which more clearly indicate that God elects some.

    You continue to ignore these other accounts in scripture. This is why you hold to your position.

    Respectfully,

    Dan V.
     
  10. standingfirminChrist

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    Jesus did not say 'All types of men." Don't add to Scripture. He said 'All men.'

    Peter did not say 'all types of men,' he said 'all men.'

    I hold my position because the Bible teaches my position.
     
  11. Dan V.

    Dan V. New Member

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    I am not adding to scripture. You are not comparing scripture with scripture.

    Sincerely,

    Dan V.
     
  12. standingfirminChrist

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    I have compared Scripture with Scripture. As pointed out by HP, the Total Inability concept can not be when one realizes that if only certain people are predestined to eternal life in Christ then the command by Jesus to preach the gospel would be foolish. For those supposed elect would be saved whether they heard the gospel or not since they were predestined to be in Christ.

    The T in TULIP is pure nonsense when compared with the Word of God.
     
  13. Dan V.

    Dan V. New Member

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    You are incorrect. The command by Jesus to preach the gospel is the primary means with which God saves. The spirit quickens the elect on the hearing of His word preached. This is why they respond. I have detailed all of these truths with scripture. You have ignored all of them

    Dan V.
     
  14. standingfirminChrist

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    You have an answer for everything... even if the answer is wrong.

    I am through with discussing to one who will not hear the Truth as it is written in God's Word.
     
  15. Dan V.

    Dan V. New Member

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    Your refusal to repond to each scripture I've posted speaks for itself.

    I hope you change your mind and see that God changed our hearts first. He gets all the glory. You and I get none. Otherwise you take credit for yourself in your 'decision'.

    Respectfully,

    Dan V.
     
  16. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

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    HP: No one is ignoring your Scriptures. All of us are pressed for time at one time or another. I will try and respond to every one if you are patient. I will start with this one.







    HP: Why does this verse have to be seen as man lacking the ability to come? If in fact ‘all men,’ as Scripture states can come if they hear and respond, is proof that God has granted to all men the necessary abilities to come to Him. There is absolutely nothing in this verse that states or implies a lack of abilities on the part of some, nor does it state or imply that God has not naturally given all men the ability to respond.

    This Scripture simply states that there is nothing in and of mans own design and causation that would influence one to seek God without God being the cause of the influence. God is saying that man cannot, apart from Gods plans and design, create a method whereby a sinner can have a right relationship with God without God being the cause of the plan, the drawing, and or influence revealing that plan. Of a truth, no man comes to Christ unless God draws him. God alone is the Sole Designer and Implementer of any and all influences that enable ‘all’ with the requisite abilities to come to Him, just as the text states and implies.
     
  17. reformedbeliever

    reformedbeliever New Member

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    Then why doesn't God save the natives in the furthest reaches of the jungle.... who have never heard of Christ?
     
  18. reformedbeliever

    reformedbeliever New Member

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    So what was it that was better in you to cause you to believe when another would not? Now you have reason to boast.
     
  19. reformedbeliever

    reformedbeliever New Member

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    The Bible gives us the answer. We are born again of God, not human will. John 1:12-13
     
  20. reformedbeliever

    reformedbeliever New Member

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    Belief is an exercise of the will. We are not born again of our will but God's.
     
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