Salvation/election in an illustration

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by PreachTREE, Apr 14, 2008.

  1. PreachTREE

    PreachTREE
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    Well I guess i posted at the wrong time because noone answered my hypothetical question in another thread. So here it is again:

    If your child was walking blindfolded towards a deep pit with spears in the ground pointing upwards, would you grab that child, preventing him from death? or, would you just shout a command to avoid the pit and hope he/she hears and listens to you?

    Follow up: Which reaction demonstrates a genuine desire for the child to live?
     
  2. webdog

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    All analogies are flawed. "Your child" would mean the person was already a child of God in the first place.

    How did the child get there? The calvinist model would have the father putting the child on that path towards the pit. Why is there a pit of spears put in the child's path? Since God is sovereign, He must have put both on that path...right?
     
  3. PreachTREE

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    I know analogies cannot be exact but I still think they can help

    ok...reword

    A lost child was walking blindfolded towards a deep pit with spears in the ground pointing upwards, would you grab that child, preventing him from death? or, would you just shout a command to avoid the pit and hope he/she hears and listens to you?

    Follow up: Which reaction demonstrates a genuine desire for the child to live?
     
  4. The Archangel

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    The question is flawed because we (humans) are not walking to certain death. Rather, because of Adam, we have already experienced it.

    In salvation, God is not in the business of preventing "death;" He is, however, in the business of reviving the dead and that is what He does, through regeneration, in salvation.

    Blessings,

    The Archangel.
     
  5. webdog

    webdog
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    Again, who put the blindfold on? Who put the pit of spears on the path? Who put the child on the path?
     
  6. The Archangel

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    Again, already dead...not walking. In need of resurrection.

    The Archangel
     
  7. PreachTREE

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    Man this feels like parsing a verb in Greek class :laugh: .

    Ok, forget the blindfold. He is blind.

    Who cares who put the pit there?

    The child is lost and chose that path.

    ok...reword

    A lost blind child was walking towards a deep pit with spears in the ground pointing upwards, would you grab that child, preventing him from death? or, would you just shout a command to avoid the pit and hope he/she hears and listens to you?

    Follow up: Which reaction demonstrates a genuine desire for the child to live?


    This is great.
     
  8. PreachTREE

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    wouldn't the childs lostness represent death?
     
  9. PreachTREE

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    I think we are agreeing here.

    Men are born dead not weakened

    and,

    Salvation is God's business


    Help reconstruct the hypothetical question
     
  10. The Archangel

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    Here's my analogy:

    - Most people think of salvation in this way--God stops those who have faith in Him from running into the proverbial on-coming traffic and being hit by cars and being killed. Salvation does not work that way.

    The reality of salvation is this: We (humans) have already run into the traffic and have already been hit by the cars and are already laying dead in the street. Salvation is when God walks (so to speak) among the myriad of corpses in the road and touches certain people and brings them back to life.

    Here's a friend's analogy:

    - Most people think of salvation as Christ throwing a life preserver to a struggling, drowning swimmer.

    The reality of salvation is this: We have already drowned. We are dead and lifeless on the bottom of the ocean and Christ reaches down, pulls us onto the boat, and brings us back to life.

    I'm sorry this seems very formal. I usually, however, explain the analogies the way they're printed.

    Hope that helps (even though no analogy is truly perfect)

    Blessings,

    The Archangel
     
  11. The Archangel

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    So then, the question would be:

    Why does God choose to bring only certain people back to life and not every one?

    That answer is known only to God.

    The Archangel
     
  12. webdog

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    If man is born dead, infants and aborted fetuses go to hell. This is a presupposition calvinism makes. Read Romans 6 with an open mind.
     
  13. The Archangel

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    This is a Calvinistic conundrum, I freely admit. I don't have an answer for this objection except to say that I trust God, in all situations, to do what He deems is right.

    To reject the so-called "Total Inability" doctrine on this one objection is to, pardon the put, throw the baby out with the bath water.

    Your point would be...?

    Blessings,

    The Archangel
     
  14. Amy.G

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    Num 21:8 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and it shall be that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, shall live."
    Num 21:9 So Moses made a bronze serpent, and put it on a pole; and so it was, if a serpent had bitten anyone, when he looked at the bronze serpent, he lived.


    Jhn 3:14 "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
    Jhn 3:15 "that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.


    Did those who did not look at the serpent in the desert refuse to do so because they were not of the elect?

    It seems that anyone who is willing to look upon (believe in) Christ will be saved, just as those who were willing to look upon the serpent in the desert.
     
  15. webdog

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    Total inability doctrine is not found in Scripture. Man is able. God has told man to choose you this day who you will serve. That insinuates ability.
    ...to learn exactly when man "dies" (separation from God, not spiritual corpse)
     
  16. PreachTREE

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    Thanks. Sounds good to me.
     
  17. The Archangel

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    My friend, you are sadly wrong. Fortunately, for all of us, it is not an issue impacting the validity of our salvation.

    More later,

    The Archangel
     
  18. nunatak

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    Jos 24:15 If you have no desire to worship the LORD, choose today whom you will worship, whether it be the gods whom your ancestors worshiped beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living. But I and my family will worship the LORD!"
    Jos 24:16 The people responded, "Far be it from us to abandon the LORD so we can worship other gods!
    Jos 24:17 For the LORD our God took us and our fathers out of slavery in the land of Egypt and performed these awesome miracles before our very eyes. He continually protected us as we traveled and when we passed through nations.
    Jos 24:18 The LORD drove out from before us all the nations, including the Amorites who lived in the land. So we too will worship the LORD, for he is our God!"
    Jos 24:19 Joshua warned the people, "You will not keep worshiping the LORD, for he is a holy God. He is a jealous God who will not forgive your rebellion or your sins.
    Jos 24:20 If you abandon the LORD and worship foreign gods, he will turn against you; he will bring disaster on you and destroy you, though he once treated you well."
    Jos 24:21 The people said to Joshua, "No! We really will worship the LORD!"
    Jos 24:22 Joshua said to the people, "Do you agree to be witnesses against yourselves that you have chosen to worship the LORD?" They replied, "We are witnesses!"

    I think that Joshua is clearly commanding them to choose who they would worship since he knew they WOULD NOT worship the LORD. And he was right. The nation of Israel rebelled.
     
  19. reformedbeliever

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    You are correct in saying "it seems that anyone who is willing to look upon (believe in) Christ will be saved, just as those who were willing to look upon the serpent in the desert."

    But the Bible's answer is this; John 3: 19. "And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

    This is in context saying; "one must be born again of God before they can see or enter into the Kingdom of God."
     
  20. webdog

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    In context I see that as men loving the darkness rather than the light. That phrase alone constitutes abiltiy to love the light, but they chose not to.
     

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