Salvation: Eternal and Timely

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by pinoybaptist, Jul 7, 2008.

  1. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist
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    A poster challenged a statement I made in another thread about the Bible teaching either two types of salvation, or one salvation with two aspects .
    These are eternal, and temporal.

    The OP rightly suggested that another thread be started. So here it is.

    The basic problem with today's mainstream salvation doctrine is that it fails to place such issues as faith, repentance, obedience, gospel, and the like in proper perspective.

    These things are not pre-requisites to soul or eternal salvation, the type or aspect of salvation that Christ achieved for sinners at the cross, and the type or aspect of salvation whereby He, as the Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world, covered and washed away the sins of His people who were born before the cross.

    Soul salvation, or eternal salvation, is all OF God. Salvation is Of THE LORD, cried out the psalmist. Paul said "not by works of righteousnesses which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us", to Titus.

    It is an all-encompassing salvation, in that the blood of Jesus Christ redeemed every sinner for whom He authored eternal redemption who were scattered all over the earth, and existed before and during His time.

    Eternal salvation depended on the will of God, the obedience of the Son, and the work of the Holy Spirit. There is NOTHING required from the recipient.

    When He finished His work at the cross, here in time, the work of redemption of His people was complete. Nothing else had to be added. The redeemed sinner, wherever he was on this earth at that time and heneforth had access to heaven.

    That is what the cross accomplished for sinners.

    And that is the gospel that Jesus Christ wanted spread throughout all nations.

    That God had condescended to live among sinners, and had in fact secured their salvation.

    This is what the apostles, and through them, those who were in the ministry, were to teach.

    Again, let us remember that at that particular date in time, when the Redeemer and His apostles were on top of that mountain, before His ascencion, there was no nation on earth that believed in the One true God except Israel (and they crucified His Son), and there was no nation on earth that had people who handled the Word of Life (that is, saw Him in the flesh) except Israel.

    Once we begin to see that eternal redemption was finished and accomplished by its Author at the cross, and the fullness and grace of this eternal redemption/salvation, we will also begin to understand where faith, repentance, and the rest fall in.

    The Father chose, the Son redeemed the chosen, and now the Holy Spirit takes the place of the Son here on earth. Remember that these three are One Omnipotent, Omnipresent, Omniscient God.

    The Holy Spirit being God is able to be everywhere, knows everything (therefore knows who the redeemed are), and is able to regenerate by His own power.

    The apostles do not know who the redeemed are, where they were, and what their circumstances are. They will not be able to reach all who are benefactors of Christ's eternal redemption, but the Holy Spirit can.

    Therefore they are simply to go and teach, and whoever believes and is baptized, shall be saved.

    The modern soteriologists say this word "saved" means eternal salvation, or soul salvation, and their students swallow their teaching without taking a look closely at the food being shoved down their throats.

    If this word "saved" means eternal salvation, then what did Christ accomplish at the cross ?

    Again, we need to remember, the redeemed of God were scattered all over the earth before the cross, during the cross, after the cross, and even now in our time.

    Many of these redeemed are caught up in a religion, creed, or system they were born and raised in, and many, in Paul's words, have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge.

    The critic in the other thread quoted a verse from Romans 10, and I do not think he quoted it because he studied that book from beginning to end and in proper context. Many times I have quoted that verse myself remembering what my pastor or teacher said, and studying that verse from the point of view of my church's doctrine.

    Paul in that chapter was referring to the zealousness of certain Israelites trying to establish their own righteousness, because they were ignorant of God's righteousness which is in Christ. He wanted to reach these people because Paul believed these were among the redeemed, and need to be taught, or discipled.

    When a person is taught and discipled and claims to believe that Christ indeed is his Savior, therein is faith, and with that confession comes salvation from error , and that faith is justified by his subsequent actions: submission to baptism, joining his church, turning away from idols to the living God, a dedicated life, an awareness of sin and a revulsion of it, a love of the brethren and of the written word, and so on.

    Many on this board have witnessed to Roman Catholics, and rejoiced when one converted , which is really the proper word. Christ saved him before he heard the gospel, the Holy Spirit quickened him before you ever got to him and prepared his heart for the gospel, his conversion occured at the point when you confirmed to him from the Bible what the Spirit has already revealed to him.

    Yet we have been made to believe that because of our witnessing, he got "saved" in the eternal sense.

    Therein is the difference between eternal salvation, and timely salvation, and there are perhaps many more.

    Eternal salvation is purely of God, none of the recipient. This salvation was planned, authored, and executed by the Triune God.

    Gospel, or time, salvation, requires input from the professing one: faith, repentance, obedience. This type or aspect of salvation will not benefit all of God's people, because this depends on those in the ministry, who are not omnipresent.
     
    #1 pinoybaptist, Jul 7, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 7, 2008
  2. pinoybaptist

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    bumping this up for the benefit of those who want to prove this a heresy.
     
  3. lbaker

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    So, according to your thinking, would it be possible for someone to respond to the gospel and be saved temporally but lost eternally by not being one of the elect. Or, is it impossible for someone who is not elect to respond to gospel preaching?
     
  4. pinoybaptist

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    viewed 14 times, yet no one called it a heresy....yet.
    I wonder if the challenger will step up the plate.
     
  5. pinoybaptist

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    ah, finally. this is not about election or unelection. this is about whether the eternal redemption of all of God's people from the dawn of time to the end of time requires input from its recipients.
    Is eternal salvation all OF the Lord, or is it not.

    Do you want to add to what the Lord Jesus Christ did, or do you want Him to have all the glory for it, when it comes to the eternal salvation of your soul.

    Does the Bible teach only ONE salvation, or when rightly divided, the Bible does teach two (eternal and timely, different from what the ME's teach, webbie) types of salvation or one type of salvation with two aspects to each.

    So, please, maybe you hate Calvinists, or those who sound like Calvinists, you are welcome to go to heaven with that hate, but for now, stick to the subject matter.
     
  6. lbaker

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    Hey, I don't hate anybody, not even Calvinists. ;-)

    I thought that was a valid question about two possible modes of salvation and whether they were mutually inclusive or not.
     
  7. Amy.G

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    All I can say is.........................:eek:



    This is defintely another gospel.

    People are saved apart from repentance and faith? Not in my bible.
     
  8. standingfirminChrist

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    pinoy is teaching two salvations... just as the ME/KA proponents did on here several months back.

    There is only one Salvation and it is found in Jesus Christ... and only after one has heard the gospel.
     
  9. pinoybaptist

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    okay, i take back what i said about u hating Calvinists.

    there are no two possible modes of salvation.
    Salvation is never a possibility.
    It is a reality.
    Eternal salvation is premised solely and primarily on the finished work of Christ at the cross, planned in eternity past, and given (not offered) as a gift to those for whom it was authored and threfore intended.
    You can call them "whosover", I prefer to call them the elect.
    Eternal salvation is a given and done deal for all of God's children, past, present, and future.
    I am not saying they are going to be born regenerate already, only that they are redeemed already, otherwise Christ's work does not stand alone on His having finished it, and He would not have entered heaven by His own blood and sat down at the right hand of power as the writer of Hebrews said.
    Regeneration is the work of the Holy Spirit, and He does it apart from means.
    Calvinists teach that the Holy Spirit is able to do His regeneration only within the environment of gospel preaching.
    Arminians teach that regeneration occur when the sinner makes a decision for Christ.
    I find neither to be true and consistent with what the character of eternal redemption and eternal salvation are.

    All men are born sinners and at enmity with God, dead in sins and trespasses because of the nature they have inherited from Adam.
    The difference is that those who are God's own have already been redeemed at the cross, and in the Holy Spirit's own due time He will regenerate and not pass by any of these.

    With regards to timely salvation, this is clearly taught by principle in the Bible. This will not be a reality for all of the redeemed because not all of them will be reached by the gospel, but to those who are reached by the gospel, the command is to repent, believe, and be baptized, in order to be saved from the error in which they have been living in this plane called time.

    When they do, they are called out to be a visible body separated unto God, and glorifying God in their midst. This is what gospel salvation is all about. It does not result in the soul being spared the penalty of sin, because it is Christ's sacrifice that secured him from that. Rather, gospel or time salvation results in his knowing of the whys and wherefores of his salvation, and causes him to abandon his efforts to establish his own righteousness and rely on God's righteousness in Christ Jesus.
     
  10. pinoybaptist

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    :eek: may indeed be the right smiley for you when you find out that all this time you have been fed and taught error by somebody who has probably been fed and taught error by somebody who had been fed and taught error, Amy.G.

    no offense meant.

    that was what my emotion was when I finally learned to act like the Bereans do. See for myself the Scriptures. Try reading Romans 10 with the historical context in mind, and you will see what Paul was really saying about the Jews.

    Many of them were zealous of God but not according to knowledge,
    (the same thing you could say of some Catholics, some JW's, some SDA's, some Mormons, some Protestants, etc), and what Paul was basically saying was they needed to hear the truth in order for them to realize that righteousness is in Christ and they can only stop establishing their own righteousness if the hear, but how will they hear if no one is sent ?

    He never referred to their eternal salvation, because as far as Paul was concerned, eternal salvation is all OF Christ.
     
  11. lbaker

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    Thanks. Tell me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like you understand baptism to be a part of obtaining timely salvation???
     
  12. webdog

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    Yep...heresy.
     
  13. pinoybaptist

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    I think if you study well what I am trying to say, you will see that I am not preaching the same thing that ME's are preaching, and I don't know what KA stands for so I will leave that be.

    True.

    And that is transferring the redeeming power of the blood of the Lamb to the gospel. That is not rightly dividing the word.

    Try considering Paul's words in 2 Timothy 1:9-10:
    saved and called with a holy calling (to preach the gospel and suffer its afflictions), not because they were faithful, or knowledgeable, or full of faith, or well studied, or full of repentance, but according to God's own purpose and grace, which were given to them (grace) in Christ Jesus (the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world) before the world began (not after he met Jesus on the Damascus road).


    remember that Scripture: Grace and Truth came by Jesus Christ ?
    not is abolishing, not will soon abolish, not about to abolish, not going to abolish, but abolished[/u]. Finished. Done. Otherwise, neither you nor I have any hope of or claim to eternal life, if the One to whom we say were not Himself able to vanquish death.



    And that is the purpose of the gospel. To bring to light life and immortality, not give life and immortality.
     
    #13 pinoybaptist, Jul 7, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 7, 2008
  14. standingfirminChrist

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    Exactly... you are not rightly dividing the Word.
     
  15. pinoybaptist

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    No, but here is what it is. Baptism is one of the ways in which one gets into a gospel church. Membership requirement, if you will. It is basically in church that one gets instruction.
    Somebody who claims to have understood and accepted that Christ is the only way will want to fellowship with those who know Christ the same way, it is therefore a logical thing for him to want to be baptized, and thus enjoy the benefits of belonging to a gospel church such as the right and privilege to the Lord's Table, and other things that only membership can give him.

    He can also choose not to be baptized and that will not disbar him from receiving gospel instruction, and applying these instructions and truths to his own life. Baptism is a public act.

    Faith and repentance are private acts, between him and the Lord he now claims as his.

    The regenerate sinner is called to repentance, that is, to turn away from his old life, be it religious or secular, and live his life under the hand of the One True God.
    Obviously, without faith, this will not be possible, and this is the faith that justifies him before men, and this faith is a gift from God. It is not inherent in the man.
    But how can faith and repentance be required for those who have not heard ? And obviously not all will hear.

    That is why eternal salvation, or the eternal aspect of salvation, is totally different from the timely results of that salvation.
     
  16. pinoybaptist

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    no. you are not rightly dividing the word, man.
    you do not even bother to read what others write, unlike lbaker.
     
  17. pinoybaptist

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    web, i would like to maintain respect between you, me, and most others here, so i am very careful about using that word.

    now, if you have the Scriptures, will you please show me where did Paul, Peter, John, and other writers say that before Christ puts on human flesh and save sinners, before the work of the cross, and the blood of Calvary, are effective, the sinner MUST FIRST have faith, repent, and such, otherwise Christ's work means nothing at all ?

    thank you.
     
  18. standingfirminChrist

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    I have to admit I do believe in predestination.

    pinoy was predestined to tell everyone of two salvations.

    I was predestined to tell everyone the truth that there is only one Salvation.
     
  19. sag38

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    Debating this is like debating that one can be an active homosexual and it be "ok." The Bible is very clear. There's no need to debate it within the circles of Bible believing folks. It's the same with this double salvation heresy. It is extra Biblical. Anyone teaching this or advocating this in my church would find himself or herself hunting a new church or I'd be finding another church to serve because apostasy is being tolerated in the ranks.
     
  20. pinoybaptist

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    you have been predestined to remain thick-skulled not to understand scripture when properly defined.:laugh:
     

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