Salvation for the hostile witness

Skan,

In the Op I think the idea of the super outwardly rebellious person was being viewed, ie the demoniac.....

What I find much more troubling is this other inner rebellion. I am concerned for the young people ...both my own,and those I see in churches I have been in,or visit.

Many churches strive to do things decently and in order. That is a good thing.
What happens however is that sometimes the children just learn to sit quietly,so they do not get spanked...but they really do not pay attention.
then they grow older...but never really seek to commune with God.

They exchange the outward obedience to parental instruction...and sacrifice the inner heart communion which is primary.

Jesus starting with nicodemus, then going to the temple, then the sermon on the mount kept a steady theme of the contrast between the outer externals of religion....contrasted to the inner thought life.

 

I have the same conviction brother! Preach it!

 

I'm assuming you have me in the latter camp? Please help me understand what you mean by "immediate assent?" I'm just trying to follow you so I can better understand the question.

It appears that you are asking the non-Calvinist how we believe the conversion takes place in the life of someone outwardly hostile toward God, is that right?

 

I would ask the person why they hate God. Hate is often a defensive reaction. If a person believes God hates them, they will hate God in return. We see the story of Mary Magdelene in scriptures. Being a harlot, she most likely believed God hated her. But Jesus showed her he loved her and wanted to forgive her sins. Her hard heart was broken and she was filled with love and joy toward her Savior.

Many people falsely believe God hates them and so hate God in return. Show this person God truly loves them and gave his Son Jesus to die for them personally. If they will listen, you may win them over.

It takes time and patience, it is difficult for people to break with long held beliefs.

 

glfred,
I am the last person on the face of the earth who would have wanted to seek God, or the bible years ago. I cursed christians, ridiculed them, etc.
Started to read the bible to find all the mistakes and contradictions in it.
There is just no way I was going to believe the bible and quote scripture,or go to church or bible study.
I was looking to find things I could laugh at. After 4 months or so, secretly reading a bible I found my way into the NT and the Spirit of God wrought such conviction of sin in my heart I thought for sure God was going to take my very breath away.
When the Spirit of God moves savingly on a person it is all over.

When Jesus says come all that labor and are heavy laden, come unto me and I will give you rest.....I believe this is spoken to those the Spirit moves upon in this way. In other words ....the only ones who will come have already been convicted of the sinfulness of their sin

 

I think Icon's testimony points to an important point. The power of the Spirit's truth.

Point people to the truth in love and that is really all you can do.

 

Nice to find a neutral topic to agree on for a change:laugh::laugh::thumbs:

 

:thumbsup: I suspect we have a lot more in common than we don't in the greater scheme of things.

 

Great testimony! Thanks for sharing! :jesus:

 

why don't we ask Apostles paul and james if they "loved Jesus" before they were converted!

Think that the "hardest to reach" people are some of the ones God delights in save as they REALLY show off His grace and mercy!

reminded of George Mueller, londan orphenege

prayed YEARS for close friend to get saved, and he did at george Mueller funural service!

 

Robert,

We have a Great God, and so great salvation. Knowing how rebellious I was I am confident to present the gospel in any situation knowing that God is able to save to the uttermost ,those who will come to God by Him.
I know that God has more gifted persons, and more eloquent spokesman ...but I usually do not see them in the truckstops and warehouses and resturants that I travel in.
So God uses me with all my rough edges to speak to some other rough individuals. Robert.... we do not often agree on theological subjects from what I can see....but we can agree on God's great mercy for sinners.
God forbid if we can all discuss theology here....and then fail to bring gospel light on our jobs, and around those we meet in the marketplace:godisgood:
You might not believe it...but it is my understanding of the doctrines of grace that compels me to obey mt 28 in public...

 

In my opinion, on the practical side of things, it really isn't much difference, Guy.

For example, when I hear Icon's testimony I suspect from his "Calvinistic" perspective he feels as if the Spirit effectually regenerated him prior to his seeking the truth in the bible, whereas I tend to think that the bible is the means used by the spirit to bring conviction and faith which lead to his being regenerated. Either way the common ground is the need for the TRUTH. The Spirit is Truth according to 1 John 5 and it is my belief that the Spirit ALWAYS works with the TRUTH is spoken.

But, even if you don't agree, you do believe that truth must be preached, so I'd say keep speaking truth in love to them. The "IN LOVE" part is important because sometimes the truth can come across as judgement and condemnation if its used as a battering ram. If the people know you really care about them they are more likely to listen to you.

Also, I will say that there may be a time for "tough love." The teaching in scripture regarding casting out the unrepentant from the church in order to save their soul is important to understand IMO. You might think that casting someone out would only serve as condemnation and judgement, but not so. In casting them out "in love" you are telling them that you will welcome them back if they repent but until then you love them too much to allow them to be enabled and supported by this fellowship. This allows them to hit rock bottom sooner or it could serve to provoke them to repentance.

This is the same principle we see at work in God's cutting off of Israel. Some see His hardening of Israel as being an act of judgement and certain condemnation. Not so. His hope is to provoke them to envy and by binding all men over to disobedience and the consequences of such allows Him to show mercy to them all.

Just my 2 cents. Like I said, I think practically it is the same for both camps really, but in my experience those of the reformed persuasion tend to "give up" on people earlier than what I see in you. I admire that about you! :thumbs:

 

If they are still lashing out and fighting instead of humbling asking for assistance then they are not at "rock bottom" IMO.

When dealing with mental health issues these rules may not apply because each situation is very unique and I don't know there is one good answer to problem. Especially not in the limitations of this format.

 

Amen. Praise God for that! I feel like you are attempting to make some kind of a point with this statement? I believe God still heals and works miracles, if that is what you are attempting to address???

 

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs: