salvation Forever?

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by Jarthur001, Jul 20, 2005.

  1. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001
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    Lets look at salvation as a triangle.

    Place God The Father at the top center point of the triangle.
    Place Christ at the lower left side of the triangle.
    Place The believer at the lower right side of the triangle.

    Now draw a line from God the Father to The believer and make a arrow pointing at The believer name this line Justification

    Next draw a line From Christ and pointing at The believe and name this line redemption.

    Last draw a line from Christ pointing at God the Father and name this line propitiation.

    Justification ponits down for it shows something God has done for us. We are justified by grace from god based on christ's sacrifice.

    propitiation points up for christ propitiated the father by his death on our behalf.

    last redemption is something jesus does for his people. he redeems us and sets us free.

    Notice God the Father does one act. Christ does the other acts. We do nothing but receive.

    Redemption,...the greek base word from where we get redeem, redeemer, redemption is "luo"

    luo means to loose or loosen. It means to unbind armor or clothes. Or to humans loosen as a prisoner, to set free. The release of the prisoner means a "ramsom price" is paid.

    this is where we get "lutron" which tells us how the redemption comes about. it meant the "ransom price" itself.

    from this we get "lutroo" which means "to release with payment of price". anther close word is "lutrosis"..or set free, divorce, forgive


    matt 20:28
    The son of Man can not to be served but to serve, and give his life as a ransom for many

    titus 2:14
    "who gave himself for us to redeem us from all iniquity and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good deeds.

    1 peter 1:18-19
    You know that you were ransomed from futile ways...not with gold and slver...but with the blood of christ

    hosea shows us a picture of this. gomer in the pits of sin...a slave to sin. Gomer had to be bought. Gomer now belonged to hosea...it came with a price. Gomer could not buy herself out. She had no say so...she was a slave.


    Christ Paid With His Death...with his blood...
    To Free Us.

    We too were slaves to sin.

    He Now Owns US...paid for with his blood.

    What ramson is greater than this?
    Can someone now take us from him?

    Tell me a greater value then the Blood of God.

    Salvation is from God. The price he paid will last forever. No one can out bid him. Salvation is forever.


    In Christ...james
     
  2. here now

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    Yes and ones salvation is by the Grace of God. He did not have to send His only begotten Son to bear our sins upon the cross, so that we may have life. A life that we did not have because of the deadness we were in, due to the fall of Adam.

    Salvation is for our reconciliation with God. After our salvation we are a children of God, he is our Father. Salvation is what allows us to have that relationship with the Father. It is through that salvation(reconciliation) that we now have life. And that life is eternal. And that life is in Jesus Christ. And that life is from the moment that we first believe in Him, forever more,everlasting life. We are in Him He is in us. Now where once we were dead,we have Life, through Christ.

    Salvation is right here, right now, forever more, by the Grace of God. Thank God.
     
  3. webdog

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    Also, why did God choose phrases like "eternal life", "everlasting life" and "never perish"?

    How can something "eternal", "everlasting" have an ending, or break point or how can it be taken away without God being a liar?
     
  4. johnp.

    johnp.
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    What in particular webdog? Everlasting life is exactly everlasting.

    john.
     
  5. webdog

    webdog
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    I agree...eternal life would be conditional life if it could be lost or walked out on. The moment one put's faith in God, they become a new creature, i.e., they have eternal life. Not to say one can't stumble and walk away from their fellowship with God. Even in this state, the HS convicts the heart (I hate to admit, but I am speaking from experience). God chastens His children, and believe me, He does! Eternal life can be nothing but eternal life, regardless how man tries to make it conditional life.
     
  6. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest
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    Salvation is a ONE-TIME event in eternity for each man who has faith in God. It is NOT an ongoing everlasting event.

    It is not like texcoating your house where one is good for 15 years.

    It is instead once with its effects lasting eternally.
     
  7. BobRyan

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    Except that "propitiation" is first and foremost a pagan concept of "appeasement" and not the Bible concept of "Atoning Sacrifice".

    AS we have seen - that idea of "propitiating favor" is totally wrong.

    "God so LOVED" that "HE GAVE"

    "Atoning Sacrifice" is the correct model.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  8. here now

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    Salvation is one's reconciliation to God, the moment one first believes.
    It is everlasting life in Jesus, the moment one first believes.
     
  9. BobRyan

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    This was also true of Lucifer and Adam and Eve - they were God's created Children. Except in their cases they were CREATED as sinless perfect NATURAL branches! We must be born again and "grafted in" and yet are still sinful and prone to err.

    But just as we see that they faced the possibility of "fellowship revoked" - so also in Matt 18 Christ points to the real problem of "Forgiveness revoked" saying "SO shall my Father do to EACH ONE OF YOU if you do not.."

    This is shown again in Ezek 18. It is seen again in Heb 6. It is shown repeatedly in the NT - but the Matt 18 example is too detailed and too specific to be ignored!

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  10. Wes Outwest

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    That is not necessarily true! Scriptures tell us that faith can be lost. If you have faith in God, nothing can take you from God. But what happens if you lose your faith in God for yourself? So long as you maintained your faith in God, nothing could separate you from God. But if you lose interest (lose faith), then God is not obligated to keep you. You went south on your own! God did not help you go south!.

    So, if you stop believing in God, God is not obligated to keep on saving you who no longer believe in him.
     
  11. webdog

    webdog
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    Correct, He is not obligated...but He does, hence the "I will NEVER LEAVE YOU nor forsake you".
     
  12. Wes Outwest

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    Correct, He is not obligated...but He does, hence the "I will NEVER LEAVE YOU nor forsake you". </font>[/QUOTE]But the unbeliever the one who loses faith, is the one who BREAKS the relationship, and departs from salvation!
     
  13. webdog

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    Correct, He is not obligated...but He does, hence the "I will NEVER LEAVE YOU nor forsake you". </font>[/QUOTE]But the unbeliever the one who loses faith, is the one who BREAKS the relationship, and departs from salvation! </font>[/QUOTE]...only if God let's you!
     
  14. here now

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    This was also true of Lucifer and Adam and Eve - they were God's created Children. Except in their cases they were CREATED as sinless perfect NATURAL branches! We must be born again and "grafted in" and yet are still sinful and prone to err.

    But just as we see that they faced the possibility of "fellowship revoked" - so also in Matt 18 Christ points to the real problem of "Forgiveness revoked" saying "SO shall my Father do to EACH ONE OF YOU if you do not.."

    This is shown again in Ezek 18. It is seen again in Heb 6. It is shown repeatedly in the NT - but the Matt 18 example is too detailed and too specific to be ignored!

    In Christ,

    Bob
    </font>[/QUOTE]Bob,
    Lucifer, Adam and Eve were not covered by the blood of Jesus.They lost fellowship with God (Spiritual died), because of thier sins. We do not lose our salvation because of our sins, once we are saved. Thanks be to the Grace of God, for the sacrifice of His Son.

    John 6:48-50 Jesus says:

    "I am the bread of life.Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead. This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man eat thereof, and not die."

    The fathers were not covered by the Blood.
    We are covered by the Blood.


    John 6:58 Jesus says:

    "This is the bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna and are dead: he that eateth this bread shall LIVE FOREVER."

    Again the fathers died because they did not have the benefit of Jesus' Blood.

    We on the other hand LIVE FOREVER because we are covered by the Blood.
     
  15. here now

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    Correct, He is not obligated...but He does, hence the "I will NEVER LEAVE YOU nor forsake you". </font>[/QUOTE]But the unbeliever the one who loses faith, is the one who BREAKS the relationship, and departs from salvation! </font>[/QUOTE]The unbeliever never had true faith in the first place. :rolleyes:
     
  16. BobRyan

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    Indeed. They were flawless - sinless, perfect, children of God - the "natural branches". No shedding of blood is needed when there is no sin to forgive.

    Yet these perfect, flawless, sinless "natural branches" - the natural children of God - God's own handiwork -- fell.

    Indeed.

    That is the "claim".

    Now look at the "Details" of Matt 18 - does Christ "Actually" point to something that the FORGIVEN slave did "wrong"??

    Does He actually point to something (in warning) that His followers are NOT to do "Wrong" because if they do DO it "So shall my Father DO to you each of you IF YOU DO not...".

    Did you notice any "doing" there??

    Yes?

    Then you got the picture!

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  17. BobRyan

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    Since details are easy to ignore when they are devastating to one's POV - I will include them here.


    Matt 18:23-35 Forgiveness revoked – as opposed to blaming God for not “preserving us”.

    Here we see that the Kingdom of Heaven is the context – and the servant “owes” in that eternal reality – a debt that is far greater than he and all his substance could ever repay. He is judged as owing the debt and payment is demanded.

    So it is for all of humanity – the law points to the debt owed (Romans 6) the “Wages of Sin is death.” And Rev 20 – 21 tells us that this is in fact the suffering and torment of the 2nd death – eternal.
    Though the slave undervalues his own debt and over-values his own ability to “repay” – the Lord has mercy on him anyway and “Forgives the Debt” – full and complete forgiveness in the scenario regarding “the Kingdom of Heaven”. This is key to the Arminian point.

    But (as Christ points out in His model prayer of Matt 6) those who Are forgiven are under obligation to forgive others.
    Here the case of “the Forgiven” slave is that HE is “unwilling” to show forgiveness to others even though he HAS been forgiven.

    Exercising his free-will he is “Unwilling” to give to others that SAME sense of mercy and compassion that HAS been shown him by his Lord.
    The Lord does not show any reservation about the full and complete forgiveness that HE gave to His servant.
    Here is the direct appeal to the same Point we see Christ making in Matt 6 “Forgive us OUR debts AS WE forgive our debtors” and then adds “For if you do NOT forgive others then…” well you know what He said.

    Clearly – “forgiveness revoked” with FULL payment made now – by the slave!
    .
    Here many shout “OH NO He will NOT!”. They think that “once forgiven ALWAYS forgiven” applies even to those in rebellion. (A good 4-point Calvinist POV by the way).

    Here Christ charges that the point is valid for Christians. He argues that WE have been forgiven by our heavenly Father – and that HE will revoke Our forgiveness just as we see in this story and just as Christ claimed in Matt 6 If “we” do not persevere in showing the Same kind regard for forgiving our brothers.

    Rather than God blaming Himself for our lack of perseverance or God claiming that HE failed to preserve us – HE charges that WE are under obligation to obey as He directs or be faced with “forgiveness revoked” just as it is really described in this chapter.
     
  18. johnp.

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    Hello Bob.

    I can do it Bob says! What's the standard you must keep Bob? The law is all you have so be perfect as my Heavenly Father is man! :cool: ISA 28:9 "Who is it he is trying to teach?
    To whom is he explaining his message?
    To children weaned from their milk,
    to those just taken from the breast?

    ISA 28:10 For it is:
    Do and do, do and do,
    rule on rule, rule on rule;
    a little here, a little there."

    ISA 28:11 Very well then, with foreign lips and strange tongues
    God will speak to this people,

    ISA 28:12 to whom he said,
    "This is the resting place, let the weary rest";
    and, "This is the place of repose"--
    but they would not listen.

    ISA 28:13 So then, the word of the LORD to them will become:
    Do and do, do and do,
    rule on rule, rule on rule;
    a little here, a little there--
    so that they will go and fall backward,
    be injured and snared and captured.

    Your use of Matt 18:23-35 is useless to you as the man is a servant when he comes in and when he goes out and his family suffers the same fate as him for what? :cool: For his sin.

    john.
     
  19. Wes Outwest

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    Correct, He is not obligated...but He does, hence the "I will NEVER LEAVE YOU nor forsake you". </font>[/QUOTE]But the unbeliever the one who loses faith, is the one who BREAKS the relationship, and departs from salvation! </font>[/QUOTE]The unbeliever never had true faith in the first place. :rolleyes: </font>[/QUOTE]There is no way you can know that! You are simply parroting someone who once said that.

    There is no way that you can know whether one's faith is the same today as it was yesterday, or will be tomorrow. There is no way for you to know that!

    Stop parroting some religious quack, and start thinking for yourself!
     
  20. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001
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    Faith is the substance of our hopes, the evidence of what we cannot see!

    lets look at the 1st part..where hope is placed.

    It is then fair to read it like this...
    Faith is the sustance of hope....
    or...Faith is the very things you see in hope.

    what is hope?

    hope is expectations of something good that we have KNOWN. or...hope is based on something that we KNOW is good
    or...hope is based on experiences we have known and we KNOW to be good.

    so the 1st part of faith is..
    faith is experiences we have known and we know to be good,...

    now the next part
    the evidence of what we cannot see!
    what is evidence?

    can i ask you to consider this.

    evidence is facts. Things that we know for sure.
    if this is the case..then we can read it like this...

    the evidence of what we cannot see!
    or the facts of what we know..but can not see
    or the facts of what God has shown us and trust in....but we have yet to see with our own eyes

    if this is ture..lets read both lines together
    faith is. ..experiences we have known and know are good, and facts God has shared with us but we have not yet seen.

    Faith is Knowing God 1st..then hoping to see Him...or hoping to see His goodness again.


    In Christ...James
     

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