Salvation from c200AD to 1517?

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Matt Black, Apr 5, 2005.

  1. Matt Black

    Matt Black
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    If you're one of those posters here who believe that the Catholic and Orthodox Churches were/ are in so much error (and have been from around 200AD, or whichever date you prefer when they allegedly apostasised) that they are preaching a false Gospel and that one cannot accordingly be saved as a result of their teaching, let me ask you a simple question: how, then, was it possible to be saved from the time of that alleged apostacy up to the time of the Reformation?

    Yours in Christ

    Matt
     
  2. Doubting Thomas

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    Matt,

    Obviously the "real" Christians (who believed in sola fide, sola Scriptura, OSAS, pretrib rapture, and symbolic-only baptism/eucharist) were hiding in dens and caves to escape the persecution of the whore of Babylon. There they left behind no historical trace of having ever existed for some 1200 or so years until they emerged during the Reformation to openly proclaim the TRUE gospel which had been suppressed, lo, all these many years.

    Another scenario is that God, in chararcteristic Calvinist fashion, irresitably zapped some believers within the corrupt Church with regeneration and they were the TRUE remnant secretly believing the TRUE gospel while going to their corrupted worship services, secretly regarding the Eucharist and baptism as mere symbols, and that they could never lose their salvation, etc. (On second thought, I guess those irresitably zapped with regeneration wouldn't necessarily have to believe anything since in Calvinist thought "it's not of him who wills, or him who runs", but it's "all of God". He elects who He pleases and we have nothing whatsover to do with it)

    Otherwise, heaven was a pretty lonely place until the Reformation.

    [ April 05, 2005, 08:42 AM: Message edited by: Doubting Thomas ]
     
  3. Matt Black

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    THanks, DT! No other takers?

    Yours in Christ

    Matt
     
  4. Doubting Thomas

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    ((Crickets))
     
  5. Pastor Larry

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    Are you serious Matt?? People have alwasy been saved the same way ... By faith alone in the work of Christ alone. That was the same during the dark time of the Papacy's grip on mainstream religion. It is true still today, where biblical Christians are still in the minority. God did not leave himself without a witness. He is not bound by false teaching, no matter how public or dominant its influence might be.
     
  6. TP

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    Greetings,

    What are you talking about!!! Christendom was at a high point during the middle ages. The medieval era was the Most Christian era of the world. YES, around in the 9th Century there was corruption in leadership, and there was also come corruption in other areas as well. Do you want to know why? BECAUSE the entire Culture was Christian, if there was curruption at all, it would involve people claiming faith. When ALL culture is Christian, then AnY sin will be done by Christian people. That aside, the medieval period was the HIGH POINT for Christianity.

    peace
     
  7. hillclimber

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    Man has always been saved by faith. Even before Christ's work on the cross, man was saved by his faith in God's revelation/s to him.
     
  8. D28guy

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    It will be wonderful to see in that day when we are all in heaven together how many brothers and sisters for those thousand years or so were saved by faith alone, God himself implanting that truth in their hearts through the witness of a previously born again person.

    They went about their lives, joyfully keeping that liberating truth in their hearts...ignoring so much of the nonsense going on around them during services...and quietly sharing with their friends the truth of the gospel as God opens doors.

    God bless all,

    Mike
     
  9. Pastor Larry

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    TP,

    In the middle ages, at the height of Catholicism, the Christendom was not at a high point. It could not be such so long as it was dominated by a church that had corrupted the gospel of grace in Christ, substituted a false gospel, and proceeded to persecute and kill true believers. Let's not rewrite history to try to make it better than it was. The culture of this world has never been truly Christian. It never will be until the return of Christ and the establishment of his kingdom on this earth.

    Matt, I apologize for my "Are you serious?" That came across stronger than I intended it to. My point was simply wondering why you were asking. It seems a strange question.
     
  10. Doubting Thomas

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    Matt, what did I tell you? Was I right or what? :D
    (Who needs historical evidence when one can simply project his beliefs back anachronistically into hypothetical individuals who allegedly must have had to exist based on the demands one's particular theory? Presto! Case closed. [​IMG] )
     
  11. Matt Black

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    ...and the evidence for their existence that these 'joyful' people left behind, and the proof that they subscribed to 'sola fide' is where, exactly?

    Yours in Christ

    Matt
     
  12. tragic_pizza

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    Why, it's... it's... umm, obvious, and if you disagre well, you're, umm, you're disagreeing with God!!!11!!11!!1!
     
  13. D28guy

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    In the scriptures. Its the only way anyone can be justified, since God has cursed any false faith/works counterfiet gospel.

    If someone isnt justified through faith alone...they arent justified.

    Blessings to all,

    Mike
     
  14. tragic_pizza

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    In the scriptures. Its the only way anyone can be justified, since God has cursed any false faith/works counterfiet gospel.

    If someone isnt justified through faith alone...they arent justified.

    Blessings to all,

    Mike
    </font>[/QUOTE]Which Scriptures? Certainly prior to Gutenburg, there weren't any 1611 Authorized King James Version Bibles (bouond in Gen-yoo-wine Leather and tabbed for ready reference, with the words o' Christ in red). In fact, until sometime in the fourth century, if memory serves, the New Testament didn't exist as such. So... how were they Sola Scriptura? Instinctively? Because their preacher told them to? How?
     
  15. Doubting Thomas

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    In the scriptures. Its the only way anyone can be justified, since God has cursed any false faith/works counterfiet gospel.

    If someone isnt justified through faith alone...they arent justified.</font>[/QUOTE]And...there you go. Just a simple reminder of what I said above:
     
  16. tragic_pizza

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    It's frustrating to me, Thomas, because my own theological beliefs lean sola-fide, and there ought to be more thought given to this matter.

    Of course, having said that, I'm instantly reminded of the not-strictly-Biblical beliefs many sola-fide Christians hold to... ordinalism for one, and some think Jesus never drank fermented wine... oh well.

    Once a discussion delves into the "I'm right because I'm right and God agrees with me" realm, there's no more to be learned, i fear.
     
  17. D28guy

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    TP [​IMG]

    Good grief, TP...arent you even a little bit embarrased to put things like that up for the whole world to see? Have you no shame?

    Who said anything about the 1611 KJV bible? :eek:

    I mentioned the scriptures.

    God bless,

    Mike
     
  18. Doubting Thomas

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    True.
     
  19. tragic_pizza

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    Good grief, TP...arent you even a little bit embarrased to put things like that up for the whole world to see? Have you no shame?

    Who said anything about the 1611 KJV bible? :eek:

    I mentioned the scriptures.

    God bless,

    Mike
    </font>[/QUOTE]Yes, you did. Now answer my question.
     
  20. D28guy

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    Tragic Pizza,

    You asked me to answer your question, so I will.

    To refresh everyones memory, You said...

    And I said...

    Which led you to say...

    And I now will help you with that. The scriptures that speak of that truth can be found in the old testament law books, historical books, prophetic books, and wisdom books. In the gospels, the book of acts, the epistles and the book or revelation.

    Here are several...

    (this of course is the proverbial "tip of the iceberg")

    John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life."

    Rom 3:22 "even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction."

    Rom 3:24 "being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;"

    Rom 3:26"for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus."

    Rom 3:28-30 "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one."

    Rom 4:3 "For what does the Scripture say? "And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness."

    Rom 4:5 "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,"

    Rom 4:11 "And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also,"

    Rom 4:16 "Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all."

    Rom 5:1 "therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,"

    Rom 5:9 "Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him."

    Rom 9:30 "What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith."

    Rom 9:33 "just as it is written, “Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense, And he who believes in Him will not be disappointed.”

    Rom 10:4 "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes."

    Rom 10:9-10 "that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved; 10 for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation."

    Rom 11:6, "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace."

    Gal 2:16 "nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified."

    Gal: 2-21 “I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.”
    Gal 3: 5-6 "Does He then, who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 6Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness."

    Gal 3:8 "And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "All the nations shall be blessed in you."

    Gal 3:14 "in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith."

    Gal 3:22 "But the Scripture has shut up all men under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe."

    Gal 3:24 "Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith."

    Eph 1-13 "In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise."

    Eph 2:8 "For it is by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. Not of works, lest anyone should boast"

    Phil 3:9 "and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith."

    1 Tim 1:16, "And yet for this reason I found mercy, in order that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience, as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life."

    What a great and wonderful God we serve! And how it must grieve Him to see His own people returning to that which He has delivered them from.

    Very sadly,

    Mike
     

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