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Salvation from c200AD to 1517?

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Matt Black, Apr 5, 2005.

  1. Matt Black

    Matt Black Well-Known Member
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    Very good, and thank you for at last posting some Scriptures instead of talking about thunder. However, I note that with one exception, all your quotes are Pauline. Now, that does not in anyway negate them of course, but it does suggest a certain selectiveness on your part. If you look at the Gospels and the rest of the NT, a more rounded soteriological picture emerges eg:

    Matt 25:31-46. Absolutely no mention of faith here; judgment is apparently according to our deeds. Spoken by Jesus Himself

    Mark 16:16: faith + baptism saves

    Luke 16: 19-31. Dives and Lazarus - again, pretty 'deeds/ works' - based

    James 2:14-26. Faith minus works is dead

    I Peter 3:10-12 - again, conduct is key

    So, the real picture is far more complex than you would perhaps think: your verses have to be balanced against my verses and some form of interpretation arrived at. Now, who is best qualified to do that - you and me, or the people living much nearer in time to when these Scriptures were written? I think the answer's pretty obvious! And if you look at the testimony of that latter group, whom we call the Early Church Fathers, you will see that they did not interpret these Scriptures as meaning sola fide; in fact, no-one did prior to Luther

    Yours in Christ

    Matt
     
  2. Matt Black

    Matt Black Well-Known Member
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    Cheers! My question is based on the following assumption which in turn is based on comments made by some BBmembers, viz:-

    1. The Catholic system of 'faith+works' cannot save; if you are taught it/ subscribe to it, you are damned

    2. That system was in place from about 200AD (or later according to some - it doesn't really matter when) until Luther came up with sola fide from 1517

    So how were people saved in the interim when they only had faith+works?

    I don't buy Mike's argument that people were quietly adhering to sola fide in the background and getting saved surreptitiously for the following reasons:-

    1. There is no evidence that anyone believed this prior to 1517 with the exception of possibly the Waldenses, Hussites and Lollards - and that's both tenuous and post-1160s

    2. Most people outside of the Catholic and Orthodox clergy, including most of the kings and nobility could not read in their own languages, let alone Latin or Greek (vernacular Bibles were extremely rare animals in those days); therefore the chances of them opening a Bible on their own (if indeed a Bible had been to hand prior to the invention of the printing press) and 'stumbling across' sola fide and thus getting saved are remote to the point of virtually impossible - they would have been dependent on instruction from the Church and thus on faith+works/sacraments teaching

    So, how were people saved in those centuries? And waht does all this make of Jesus' promise that He would build His Church - it doesn't seem that there was much 'building' being done in those centuries - without being facetious, was He on a tea break all that time?

    Yours in Christ

    Matt
     
  3. D28guy

    D28guy New Member

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    Matt Black,

    The truth of justification by faith alone is thundered from the scriptures. If I tried to post them all I would lose my job and maybe die of starvation as I tried.

    Utterly irrelavent. Every word of scripture is written by God Almighty. The particular instrument He used to inscripturate His word is no more relavent than which pen you use to send a love letter to your wife.

    The *fullness* of new covenant doctrinal truth was given to us by God through His instrument Paul. It is found all through the scriptures, but most fully through Paul.

    Yes. God chose to give to us the clearest...and most voluminous...new covenant church doctrine through Paul. Why? He chose to do it that way. So....I select mostly those.

    Actually, in the gospels and the rest of the new testament scriptures we see the great truths of the new covenant alluded to, touched on, proclaimed partially, etc...while God used Paul to gush forth these truths in their fullest power. It doesnt mean we lift Paul up over anyone else, but that is simply the way God chose.

    The scriptures fit together like a hand in a glove.

    Being closer guarantees absolutly nothing. Even as the scriptures were being written, "savage wolves", false teachers, false prophets and and decievers were already inside the church seeking to decieve.

    Those qualified to recieve truth from God are those with a humble and teachable heart, who have "ears to hear" their Shepherds voice, and who understand the role Gods scriptures are to have. It makes no difference what century they live in.

    It is!

    And that was the fatal mistake that led to what we now see as the Catholic Church, in all its tragedy.

    You can read the hearts of every born again person from pentecost until now?

    God bless,

    Mike
     
  4. Matt Black

    Matt Black Well-Known Member
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    No-one, if they did believe sola fide, left any evidence that they did. Evidence, Mike, evidence! Supposition and wishful thinking won't do!

    How do you and I know that we haven't been taught by 'savage wolves'? On the other hand, ECFs like Ignatius and Polycarp were appointed and discipled by the Apostle John to guard and interpret the deposit of truth he gave them, just as Timothy was by the Apostle Paul.

    The Pauline nature of your quotes is totally relevant when it comes to Biblical interpretation, not least on the issue of exegesis - we need to know who wrote the Scriptures, to whom they were addressed, and the situations to which they were addressed. Paul's 'audience' is very different from Jesus'. And I note you have failed to engage at all with the words spoken by the Lord which I posted...

    Yours in Christ

    Matt
     
  5. Doubting Thomas

    Doubting Thomas Active Member

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    The thing is, Matt, none of Mike's verses said anything about being justified by "faith alone". The one verse in the Bible (James 2:24) that mentions "faith alone" in relation to justification clearly states we are justified by works and not by faith alone.
    I think so as well. The "savage wolves" whom Paul spoke of were the heretics (docetists, ebionites, gnostics, marcionites, etc) the early fathers fought against, not the fathers themselves.

    Exactly. [​IMG]
     
  6. D28guy

    D28guy New Member

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    Matt Black,

    The scriptures Matt, the scriptures!

    Thats why we reject the false teaching of the Catholic Church in these areas. We must have evidence...and evagelicals do.

    I havent because I test all things against the scriptures...hence I see and understand justification through faith alone, as they scriptures I shared thunder home that truth.

    And every word they taught is to be tested with Gods scriptures. That which lines up can be considered interesting reading, but no more. That wich does not line up goes where it belongs...in the garbage can.

    The scriptures were written by God, using men as instruments. They were adressed to all born again people of all time. The situations are all of the situations that any christian finds themselves in that call for those passages to be consulted.

    The old testament, the gospels, and epistles fit together like a hand in a glove.

    The scriptures I have posted thunder home...along with probably thousands of others...Gods truth of justification through faith alone. Considering what God has to say about any false gospel that includes works I sincerely hope that every christian alive comes to grip with this so very foundational truth.

    God bless,

    Mike
     
  7. tragic_pizza

    tragic_pizza New Member

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    I note that the scriptures you posted were New Testament... which is odd, since the NT wasn't canonized until the fourth century or so.

    What is there in the Old Testament?
     
  8. av1611jim

    av1611jim New Member

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    Hab 2:4
    Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

    No faith plus works here! Could it be that this is where Paul got it from? ya think?

    In HIS service;
    Jim
     
  9. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Paul makes it clear in Heb 11 - the OT saints were saved .. even those not knowing every thing that Paul taught.

    In 2Tim 3 it is clear that Timothy as a CHILD was saved.

    in 2 Tim 1 - Paul argues for the clear conscience and pure faith of HIS forefathers pre-Cross.

    The fact that the church was going into error in Christs day (Mark 7 - doctrines of MAN replacing the Word of God) did not stop John the Baptizer from being saved!

    Your premise is flawed.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  10. Matt Black

    Matt Black Well-Known Member
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    So, Mike, the Scriptures you posted override the words of the Lord Himself! All you have posted is your interpretation; all I have referred to is the interpretation of the Early Church; I'm sorry but, given their credentials, I trust their interpretation more than I trust yours (or mine)

    Yours in Christ

    Matt
     
  11. D28guy

    D28guy New Member

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    Matt Black,

    Utter nonsesne. The scriptures fit together like a hand in a glove. The gospels, the epistles, the new and old testaments.

    Nonsense. Multipled millions over the course of the last 2000 years have believed precisely as I do...even prior to the wonderful God empowered reformation.

    Do you test those teachings against the word of God, and discard into the trash can that which contradicts?

    Thats a shame. They are teaching you hidious error and you reject that God apointed "truth detector" that He has provided.

    And that is your very very huge mistake.

    The interpreter of the scriptures is the Holy Spirit.

    God bless,

    Mike
     
  12. Matt Black

    Matt Black Well-Known Member
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    Mike, I agree that the Holy Spirit interprets, the question is how does the Holy Spirit interpret the Scriptures? Through each individual as he reads? That plainly does not work, therefore there has to be some other method.

    I think you'll find that those 'multipled millions' agreed with the ECFs, not you; those who agreed with the ECFs have left numerous writings behind to show that. Where are your 'multipled millions' who agree with you and where are their writings?

    Before I test anyone's writings against the Word of God, I - and you - first have to answer the question: whose interpretation of the Word of God am I to use as that yardstick? I have given you my answer; what is yours?

    And I will ask you again - and this time I want a stright answer and no 'thunderings' - what of the Lord's words in the Gospels which I quoted? What is your interpretation of them?
    Yours in Christ

    Matt
     
  13. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    "You" would know it - IF you had been using the Acts 17:11 method "approved of by the Apostles!!"


    See! Applying the method "APPROVED OF" by the Apostles in Acts 17:11 is "a good thing".

    This is "so easy"!!

    The RCC claims to have a "Short cut" that "gets around scripture" by claiming that "scritpure is unreliable" and so also "The Holy Spirit" is unreliable! Only the infallible Pope is "reliable" if you want to believe truth.

    What a hoot!

    EVERY church could claim that for their OWN leadership (the RCC hopes you wont see that).

    Then they could ALSO say of THEIR OWN leadership (AND "our leadership did not infallibly ordain the slaughter of millions of saints in the dark ages") so in MAKING that SAME claim for THEIR leadership those "other churches" would have an even "CLEANER" system of leaders to "appeal to".

    But they don't - because that is not the Apostle-approved Acts 17:11 method -- the "sola scriptura" method!

    This is just "soooo easy"!!

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  14. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    What does God's Word "say about that"??

    What does the NEW Covenant promise in that regard in Hebrews 8? Are you saved by the NEW Covenant Matt? OR is that tossed out as well?

    What does John 16 SAY about it?

    What does 1John 2 SAY?

    Is it your position that the Bible is so unreliable and so untrustworthy that these simple obvious statements can no longer be "believed"??

    Is God just not "able to get the job done" anymore?

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  15. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Hence the obvious point already made ...


    Paul makes it clear in Heb 11 - the OT saints were saved .. even those not knowing every thing that Paul taught.

    In 2Tim 3 it is clear that Timothy as a CHILD was saved.

    in 2 Tim 1 - Paul argues for the clear conscience and pure faith of HIS forefathers pre-Cross.

    The fact that the church was going into error in Christs day (Mark 7 - doctrines of MAN replacing the Word of God) did not stop John the Baptizer from being saved!

    Your premise is flawed.

    </font>[/QUOTE]
     
  16. eschatologist

    eschatologist New Member

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    I sure would like hillclimber to elaborate on how anyone would be saved apart from Jesus and the cross!!! It is made pretty clear throughout Paul's epistles and elsewhere that it is the blood of Christ that was shed on the cross that cleanses us from all of our sins. Not even those under the Law could be saved by the blood of goats and bulls, but only by the blood of Jesus Christ!
     
  17. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    True - Enoch was translated directly to heaven because of the blood of Jesus. Not because of the blood of animals. Elijah was taken directly to heaven - not by the blood of animals but by the forgiving power of the blood of Jesus alone.

    Moses stood with Elijah in glorified form and spoke with Christ in Matt 17 on the mt of transfiguration - because of the benefits of the blood of Christ.

    For as Romans 4 says "God counts those things that are NOT - as though they ARE"!

    God is not bounded by time.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  18. drspinko

    drspinko New Member

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    Matt,

    Exactly what kind of evidence are you looking for? Self-published evidence? You correctly point out that most could not even read except for those trained by the Roman church. Why do you think they kept this privelige to themselves?

    If you're looking for some kind of written history of those who were putting their faith in Christ rather than the Roman institution - [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] !!!!!!!! Who do you think controlled all of the printed media? What do you think happened to any written evidence there might have been?

    Who do you think they were persecuting and killing during that time? Only witches and Jews? I'm sure there were plenty of true believers labeled as criminals, troublemakers, heretics, or even Satan worshippers. After all, that is exactly what the religious establishment did to Christ (God's own Son!!!) when he was on earth! And as I read in the Scriptures (a privelige I have in part due to the many who gave their LIVES to translate them into languages for everyone to understand) Christ told us that if they treated Him that way, we should expect the same! Perhaps the only reason that the Roman church isn't still persecuting God's people is because of the current political and religious environment created after the Reformation!

    This is evidence enough for me.

    Randy

    [ April 10, 2005, 03:52 PM: Message edited by: drspinko ]
     
  19. Matt Black

    Matt Black Well-Known Member
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    So you call speculation and supposition evidence??!! :eek:

    Glad I don't have you representing me in court!

    Yours in Christ

    Matt
     
  20. FLMike

    FLMike Guest

    Say what?! I've neaver heard that the RCC teaches that "scripture is unreliable". Do the Orthodox also teach this? Can you point me to Council documents that teach this?
     
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