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Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Bro. Curtis, Jun 17, 2007.
If one believes New Testament wine is grape juice, are they more saved than someone who doesn't ?
Say hello to another 30 page thread...
No they are not, without a doubt. The question is a non issue in relation to salvation. **Insult removed**
The idea that NT wine is grape juice is a rewrite of history that gained popularity after the temperence movement. Up until the mid 1800s, almost everyone regarded the communion drink to be wine.
I think the original call for temperence was well justified, since alcohol abuse was epidemic at the time. But it makes no sense to reinterpret scripture based on alcohol abuse.
Regardless, I think it is foolish to overplay the issue to the point of questioning one's salvation or even making the claim of blasphemy - regardless of where you stand on the issue. I repeat:
BIBLE HISTORY OF DRUNKENNESS
The first recorded incident of drunkenness in the Bible is that
Of Noah, which is recorded in Genesis 9:20,21, which reads:
And Noah began [to be] an husbandman, and he planted a vineyard: And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent.
Although this is the first recorded account of drunkenness in
the Bible, it surely must have been rampant in the wicked anti-
deluvian world, as Genesis 6:5 implies:
And GOD saw that the wickedness of man [was] great in the earth, and [that] every imagination of the thoughts of his heart [was] only evil continually.
Concerning this point, HC Leupold writes:
The notion that mankind took a long time to advance to the point of becoming a agriculturist does not agree with the Biblical evidence… Besides, it would seem strange indeed if the uses of wine were now first being discovered by man, whose earliest works, wherever we find them, give evi- dence of great ability. Besides, in the case of Noah’s being the first wine-grower, Noah’s drunkenness is entirely excusable, and yet the nature of this record seems to imply guilt on Noah’s part. Consequently, we are rather led to the conclusion that Noah began to cultivate a plant of whose cultivation and uses he had previously known.
Regarding Noah’s drunkenness, he continues:
The having of grapes led to the making of wine. The hav- ing of wine leads to the drinking of it. In all this, taken by itself, there is no wrong. We have every reason to believe, however, that Noah was not ignorant of the potency of the drink that he had prepared. But he neglected caution. He who maintained his ground over against a wicked and godless world, neglecting watchfulness and prayer in a time of comparative safety, fell prey to a comparatively simple temptation, which should have been easy to meet. It is not the young and untried Noah who sins. It is the seasoned man of God, ripe in experience, who is here brought low. The sober tone of the detailed narrative points strongly to Noah’s guilt. Noah drinks to excess and actually “becomes drunk” (shaker) The Bible Knowledge Commentary also bears out this point:
Here Noah lay drunk and naked in his tent. Intoxication and sexual looseness are hallmarks of pagans, and both are traced back to this event in Noah’s life. Man had not changed at all; with the opportunity to start a “new cre- ation,” Noah acted like a pagan. The results of this action had serious and far-reaching cones-
quences of which we should take note of today. Genesis 9:22-25
And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without. And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the naked- ness of their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father’s nakedness. And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him. And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren. Had not Noah been drunken in the first place, this event
would have never occurred. The drastic outcome of this event
changed the course of human history. We can be sure that after
this episode that Noah must have considered it wise to have fol-
lowed a course of total abstinence from the intoxicating wine!
The next godly man to fall prey to the deceitfulness of wine
was Lot, whose incestuous acts gave birth to the tribes of the
Moabites and Ammonites who became a constant source of irri-
tation to the Israelites. In Genesis 19:30-36, we read of the
And Lot went up out of Zoar, and dwelt in the mountain, and his two daughters with him; for he feared to dwell in Zoar: and he dwelt in a cave, he and his two daughters. And the firstborn said unto the younger, Our father [is] old, and [there is] not a man in the earth to come in unto us after the manner of all the earth: Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father. And they made their father drink wine that night: and the firstborn went in, and lay with her father; and he per- ceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose. And it came to pass on the morrow, that the firstborn said unto the younger, Behold, I lay yesternight with my father: let us make him drink wine this night also; and go thou in, [and] lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father. And they made their father drink wine that night also: and the younger arose, and lay with him; and he per- ceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose. Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father.
Such abominable acts were made possible after the first drink
of wine. Let us note that the text says that Lot’s daughters made
him drink wine. The Hebrew word used for drink here is shaqah.
Young’s Analytical Concordance states the meaning here, “To
cause or give to drink.”
It is obvious that after Lot took the first drink of wine it
was then easy for his daughters to get him in a high state of
drunkenness, because as the text states, he did not even realize
what he had done. Had Lot adopted the principle of total absti-
nence from intoxicating wine, such deceit would never have
The truth of the matter is that Lot was in a sense drunk from
the moment he had taken the first drink, for he had lost self dis-
cipline. The Oxford Dictionary gives us the definition of the
Deprived of proper control of oneself by alcoholic liquor.
One therefore does not have to be reeling to be effectively
(exerpt from 'Wine in the Bible and the Scriptural Case for Total Abstinence' by Leighton G. Campbell. pp 33-36)
Lot lost self-discipline, he had no self-control... one of the fruits of the Spirit. If we have the Spirit, we will have self-control. We will not partake of that which the Word of God calls poison... alcoholic beverage.
HBSM, I have no idea what point you're trying to make. I think everyone on this board knows drunkenness is wrong, which is all your posts says. Why not try answering the original post?
npetrely, they do not know drunkenness is wrong, else they would not be advocating alcohol in moderation.
It is clear Lot was drunk from the first drink. That is my point. People may think that one drink does not affect them, but it does.
And that addresses the first post, for since the Word of God shows one drink causes drunkenness, and the Word of God states no drunkard will inherit the Kingdom of God, Salvation is not found in grape juice or alcohol but alcoholin the life of a believer shows that one believed in vain.
IOW, drinking grape juice will not send a person to hell... but alcohol will.
I thought this thread had been closed after 30 pages, just yesterday.
Relax, this'll get shut down fast, too.
Alcohol will send a person hell?
Wow. That is simply amazing.
So how much does it take? One drink? Two drinks? A six pack? :BangHead:
What does this say for all our brothers and sisters that are Lutheran and Presbytarian and Methodist? My best friend is Lutheran and from a good German family just a couple of generations off the boat. They drink. They also love the Lord and are more active in their local church than some I know who never swallow anything stronger than tea.
You have made something part and parcel of salvation that is not part of salvation. Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved!
One drink made Lot drunk. Drunkards will not inherit the Kingdom of God. You do the math.
One cannot eat of the table of the Lord and drink from the cup of the devil.
If one truly believes on the Lord, one will obey His Word. His Word demands abstinence in all who truly believe on Him.
Amen. And you don't have to look to other denominations, either. The 1869 London Baptist Confession specifically cites wine as one of the two elements of the sacrament of the Lord's supper. People can try to cast doubt on the word in the New Testament, but there can be no confusion about the word in 1869.
Like I said, up until the mid 1800s, people either used wine in the sacrament, or nothing at all (just bread). So, according to HBSMN, that means almost everyone in the past 2,000 years will be going to hell.
You can trust the 1869 confessions as doctrine all you want. That does not make them Gospel.
I will trust the Word of God rather than those who advocate that which God said is poison.
I'm not advocating that anyone trust a confession over the Bible. I'm just showing that almost everyone on earth before the mid 1800s didn't see it your way. So according to you, they must all be lost. I guess people didn't start getting saved until after the mid 1800s.
Wine in the Bible is a generic word. It can mean unfermented (fruit of the vine/grape juice) wine or fermented wine. The context determines the meaning. Calling all wine in the Bible fermented destroys the meaning of the Scripture by saying that "the wine that maketh glad the heart of man" (Psalm 104:15) is the very same wine which God calls a "mocker" (Proverbs 20:1). The opposite is also true--calling all wine in the Bible unfermented (fruit of the vine/grape juice) destroys the meaning and causes much confusion. Text taken out of context is pretext.
Salvation is not based on the word "wine"--we are saved by grace alone, through faith alone in Christ alone. However, once we are saved by grace, we will have a desire to obey what God has written in His Holy Word. A saved person is a changed person (2 Corinthians 5:17). Drinking alcohol--even in moderation (which is rather a ridiculous way of justifying the use of alcohol--because moderation is different for each person), is simply "riding the fence"--being "conformed to the world" (Romans 12:2) in the area of alcohol use and being "transformed" in all other areas of Christian living. We cannot serve God and mammon (material things, which can include the use of alcohol). (Matthew 6:24).
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. (2 Timothy 2:15-16)
Here's a challenge to the grape juice folks. This fall, harvest some grapes. Make grape juice. Now, without the benefit of a freezer, since freezers did not exist in Israel in NT times, store the grape juice in some way so that it's possible to drink it during passover. Let me know what you've got.
Hint: It will only take a week or so before you know what you'll get.
Lot was also deemed righteous and godly. Last time I checke righteous people didn't go to hell (unless you believe in the ME garbage)
It is possible to store grape juice and keep it fresh. The Jewish historian Flavius Josephus of the first century AD recorded fresh fruits and juices that were over 100 years old and without any intoxicating content at all.