Featured Salvation is all about Grace > Faith > Obedience

Oops - forgot this one.

[FONT=&quot]Romans 6[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Believers Are Dead to Sin, Alive to God[/FONT]


1What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?
2May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?
3Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?
4Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.

5For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,
6knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;
7 for he who has died is freed from sin.
8Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,
9knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him.


10For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.
11Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts,
13and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead,
13 -and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.


14For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!
16Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
17But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you
became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed,
18and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.

 

Yes, I understand just quoting the bible is the safe play for you guys. But let's face it, anyone can quote the bible pretty easily wouldn't you say? It gets a little tougher when one is expected to engage in a debate and one is asked to make some real life applications of those text to their lives as an example of how it is done. But hey, if just bible quoting is the only skill you have, then carry on, but I really doubt that just bible quoting is actually persuading those on here which whom you wish to instruct. I would argue that my method of debate, which includes questioning the points of view with personal life application, is pretty effective. Notice how just my "tiny question" has totally flabbergasted you two guys. And what did you do rather than engage in life application? Well, you posted more bible quotes.

I would encourage you guys to broaden your debate abilities and add some rhetoric to your bible quotes as well as some real life applications using real life examples, especially your own, which will be the most convincing in your debating.

 

Indeed because then it switches to the problem of exegesis and Bible study - not just playing games with other posters whose views differ from yours.

John does not say in 1John 2 or 3 "these things I write that you may not sin - because I have been sinless for 6 months".

You want to "play that game" as if we cannot take John seriously unless he tells us how often he sins - but we both know that doing such a thing with a Bible writer simply does not work. They don't play "did-not did-too" games very well at all.

in Christ,

Bob

 

BIG difference here is that you and I can use same scriptures, by I do careful study of them, while you get your answers from Ellen White view on them!

 

Are you sinless?
If so, then you condemn yourself:

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1 John 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Do you sin?
According to the above passage you do.
Therefore, if you happen to die of a heart attack or stroke, or some tragic way that is very sudden, and you have unrepented sin (no chance to repent), would you go to heaven or hell?

 

My born-again spirit is sinless, while my flesh is condemned in it's sin and will not see eternity. I will, as 1 Cor 15 says, put off the mortal and put on immortality when my body dies, and I will receive a new, perfect body. This is the picture that circumcision conveys - a righteous inner man surviving the destruction of the condemned, sinful outer flesh. It is no accident that circumcision was instituted as a seal of the covenant of faith when God made Abraham righteous for believing the gospel of Christ. It is meant to be a physical shadow picture of salvation.

Rom 8:3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,
4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.​

The way I see and interpret verse 3 is that, when we are born again, our spirit is made righteous by the righteousness inherited through Christ, and our "sin" is banished and confined to our unregenerate flesh - a flesh that will never see redemption. Verse 4 says the Law is fulfilled IN US by the death of our flesh. There are 2 ways to fulfill the law - keep the Law and not deserve death, or break it and experience death.

Cr 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where [is] thy sting? O grave, where [is] thy victory?
56 The sting of death [is] sin; and the strength of sin [is] the law.​

THIS is how death has no more domain over the believer - our spirit, reborn in Christ and the righteousness that results from inheriting God's promise of salvation to Abraham, survives the death of our flesh (our physical body). Then we are granted a new body, which can never die again because once death is experienced, you are free from The Law. Therefore, in our new bodies, we would not be subject to The Law and Death because our old bodies had already received the just reward of sin, and therefore we can die no more.

Rom 8:10 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.​

Therefore of what use is it to be righteous in our flesh? None, for the flesh is corrupt and will never be redeemed, nor can it be. Our righteousness is the righteousness of Christ, imputed to our reborn spirit. Therefore the righteousness we live to God in Christ is the righteousness of the spirit, while the death we die to sin is through the corruption and eventual demise of our physical bodies.

However, Paul makes the point that we should SET OUR MINDS on the things of the spirit, rather than the things of the flesh. We need to identify ourselves as the "WHO WE ARE" in the spirit rather than the "WHO WE ARE" in the flesh. He makes the point that since the "real me" is the righteous one in the spirit, why should I continue to obey the lusts and desires that are in my flesh. While he makes the point that we can't stop our flesh from being disobedient to God, we can through our focus on who we are in the spirit spend more time not obeying the lusts of the flesh.

It is important to note that NONE of this is entry level Christian theology. None of this is pertinent to our salvation. Our salvation is by faith alone, and is apart from works, and indeed has nothing whatsoever to do with works. Our good works are an expression of the righteousness of Christ within us (than one cannot have until AFTER they are born again) and our willingness to focus our minds on the things of the spirit and the things of Christ. Works are an "advanced believer" skill. It should be noted that only immature believers focus on works, whereas mature believers simply do them as an expression of their love for God. Good works flow from a transformed heart, not the other way around. You can't please God with good works, only with a transformed spirit. Those who try to please God with works are truly engaging in a futile activity. Those who love God will do good works out of a natural affection for God and the things of God, but it isn't the action that pleases God, but the heart behind the action.

Dan 10:12 Then he said to me, "Do not be afraid, Daniel, for from the first day that you set your heart on understanding this and on humbling yourself before your God, your words were heard, and I have come in response to your words.​

God looks at the heart, the inward man, not the outward actions.

 

Evangelist-7 ... the first salvation was of Abraham when he believed the Gospel of Christ and was made righteous. This was 430 years prior to the Law and the Commandments. Therefore, I would ask you -- which law of Moses was Abraham required to follow before he was made righteous?

Gal 3:6 Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.
7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham.
8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU."

Gal 3:11 Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, " THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."

Gal 3:15 Brethren, I speak in terms of human relations: even though it is only a man's covenant, yet when it has been ratified, (Gen 15) no one sets it aside or adds conditions to it.

Gal 3:17 What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise.
18 For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise.

Gal 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

Gal 3:29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.​

So I ask you again -- what Law of Moses or 10 commandment was Abraham required to follow before he was made righteous by his faith in the gospel of Christ?

Your faith qualifies you as a spiritual descendant of Abraham. This was God's covenant with Abraham that he would be "The father" of many nations. The spiritual descendants of Abraham are those with the same faith in the gospel of Christ that Abraham had (verse 7 above). Those who are spiritual descendants of Abraham INHERIT God's promise of salvation. It is not a reward for merit or work -- it is an inheritance based on birthright. So when you are born again into the kingdom of God, you inherit Christ's righteousness. This was God's everlasting covenant with Abraham - created 430 years prior to the covenant of The Law and the Commandments, and therefore existing completely apart from and outside of that covenant. Once a covenant has been ratified by God - which it was in Genesis 15 when Abraham split the animals in half, and the fire of God passed between the halves (this is how covenants were ratified in those days) it cannot be nullified nor can any conditions be added to it (Gal 3:15).

Gal 5:4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.​

If you want to put yourself under the Law, be my guest... however you lose your Christian salvation by doing so.

Paul has some more words for those who desire to be under the law:

Gal 4:21 Tell me, you who want to be under law, do you not listen to the law?
22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman.
23 But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise.
24 This is allegorically speaking, for these women are two covenants: one proceeding from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar.
25 Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children.
26 But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother.
27 For it is written, "REJOICE, BARREN WOMAN WHO DOES NOT BEAR; BREAK FORTH AND SHOUT, YOU WHO ARE NOT IN LABOR; FOR MORE NUMEROUS ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE DESOLATE THAN OF THE ONE WHO HAS A HUSBAND."
28 And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise.
29 But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now also.
30 But what does the Scripture say? "CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON, FOR THE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE AN HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREE WOMAN."
31 So then, brethren, we are not children of a bondwoman, but of the free woman.​

 

Amen! Now your coming around :wavey:

 

Romans 8:7 (NASB) 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,

Romans 4:9 (NASB) 9 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS."
10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised;
11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them,

Actually, we see from scripture that Abraham was credited with righteousness PRIOR to being circumcised. His good works came AFTER he was made righteous.

Was Abraham obedient? Not before he believed the gospel and was made righteous! For example:

Perhaps you have a misaligned sense of James when he says:

James 2:21 (NASB) 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?

But Abraham was circumcised long before Isaac was born, and even longer before he offered Isaac on the altar. Yet the Bible says he was righteous prior to being circumcised. Surely his actions demonstrated what he believed, but the actions were unnecessary for receiving righteousness, which Abraham received apart from obedience - and purely out of grace, not reward.

So then we also receive righteousness apart from obedience. In fact, it is that rebirth as a new creation with a righteous living spirit that makes obedience possible (as it says above in Romans 8:7). Faith does not directly result in righteousness... Faith directly results in us being qualified as children of Abraham. As a direct result of being a child of Abraham, we inherit the righteousness given by grace to Abraham. That righteousness is the promised righteousness of Christ, it is not our own righteousness. Just as an inheritance is unmerited favor, our salvation is unmerited favor. Just as we receive an inheritance because of a familial relationship, we also inherit righteousness apart from merit on the basis of the kinship we have with Abraham. This is what God meant when he told Abraham that he would be THE FATHER of many nations. Those who have the same faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ are Abraham's seed and Heirs according to the promise.

Galatians 3:29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.

 

Think BIG problem is that some do not realise that Paul and james were NOT talking about Justification in same sense!

 

Please expound on that.

 

Pauls view is fromthe position of sinners becoming right with God, what is required in order to have us become and get saved by God, in a right relationship back with him, while James is after that happened, are we evidencing that we are indeed saved?

paul is from side of God viewing us now Justified, James from does outr walk now reflect that we have been before men?

 

That makes sense to me.

 

IF one keeps seeing them as talking about same thing, one gets forced into being Sabbath keepers, Losing salvation, Roman catholic etc!

 

First you distort and misunderstand paul, now doing same to writer Moses!