Salvation Is Unconditional... Because...

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by tyndale1946, Aug 19, 2002.

  1. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2001
    Messages:
    6,179
    Likes Received:
    226
    Thirty-Six Arguments
    in Favor of Unconditional Eternal Salvation
    by Elder S. F. Cayce
    November 1895

    Elder S. F. Cayce met Elder Lee Jackson (a Campbellite) in a public
    debate at Lafayette Springs, Mississippi, in November 1895. The first
    proposition was: The eternal salvation of sinners, as set forth in the
    Scriptures, is the work of God, independent of any conditions to be
    performed by man.

    In support of this proposition Elder S. F. Cayce made the following
    thirty-six affirmative arguments:

    1. Salvation is unconditional because the Scriptures teach that none in
    nature do good. Proof: Ps. xiv. 1-3; Jer. 13:23; Romans 3:12.

    2. Salvation is unconditional because the Scriptures teach that none
    seek
    God. Proof: Rom. 3:11; Psalms 10:4.

    3. Salvation is unconditional because the Scriptures teach that man,
    being corrupt, has to be made good before he can bear good fruit.
    Proof:
    Matthew 7:17,18; Luke 6:43,44; Heb. 9:14.

    4. Salvation is unconditional because the Scriptures teach that none
    can
    come to Christ until DRAWN to him by the father. Proof: John 6:44, 45;
    Psalms 65:4.

    5. Salvation is unconditional because the Scriptures teach that those
    in
    the flesh (those in an unregenerate state, not born of God) cannot
    please
    God. Proof: Rom. 8:7-9; Heb. 11:6.

    6. Salvation is unconditional because the Scriptures teach that the
    natural (unregenerate) man is not suspectible of being taught spiritual
    things. Proof: 1st Cor. 2:14; I. Cor. 1:23; John 8:43-47; I. John 4:6.

    7. Salvation is unconditional because the Scriptures teach that the
    sinner is in a state of death, hence, not able to act in order to life.
    Proof: Gen. 2:17; Gen. 3:22-24; Rom. 5:12; Eph. 2:1.

    8. Salvation is unconditional because the Scriptures teach that the
    sinner is quickened (or made alive) by the same power and means that it
    takes to resurrect those who are naturally (or corporally) dead. Proof:
    John 5:21; Eph. 2:1-7; John 5:24, 25.

    9. Salvation is unconditional because the change which the sinner
    undergoes (in being prepared for heaven) is represented, in the Bible,
    as
    a resurrection or passing from death unto life, hence, he is passive in
    that work. Proof: Col. 3:1-4; I. John 3:14; Eph. 2:1-7.

    10. Salvation is unconditional because this change is represented in
    the
    Bible as a birth, therefore a work in which the sinner must be passive.
    Proof: John 3:1-7; John 1:11-13.

    11. Salvation is unconditional because those who do righteousness are
    (already) born of God. Proof: I. John 2:29; I. John 3:7; I. Peter
    1:22,23.

    12. Salvation is unconditional because the change which the child of
    God
    has undergone is represented, in the Bible, as a death, hence a work in
    which he was passive. Proof: Rom. 6:2-8; Col. 2:20; I. Peter 2:24; II.
    Tim. 2:11.

    13. Salvation is unconditional because the change which the sinner
    undergoes is represented, in the Bible, as a deliverance; hence, a work
    performed by a higher power. Proof: Col. 1:13; II. Cor. 1:9,19; I.
    Thess.
    1:10; Psalms 56:13.

    14. Salvation is unconditional because the work which puts the sinner
    in
    Christ or makes him (manifestly) a child of God, is represented as the
    work of God. Proof: I. Cor. 1:30; Eph. 2:10; I. Cor. 6:11; I. Cor.
    12:13.

    15. Salvation is unconditional because the work done in making us
    children of God is represented as a creative work, and because we are
    then NEW creatures (not merely reformed creatures) and because, also,
    this work is UNTO, hence, prior to the performing of good works. Proof:
    II. Cor. 5:17; Eph. 2:10.

    16. Salvation is unconditional because the Scriptures teach that
    eternal
    life and all things pertaining thereto, is a gift, not something
    merited
    or purchased. Proof: Romans 6:23; John 17:2; John 10:27,28; Romans
    8:32.

    17. Salvation is unconditional because faith is represented as being a
    fruit of the Spirit, therefore, not possessed by any until they have
    the
    Spirit, or have been born again. Proof: Hebrews 12:2; Gal. 5:22; I.
    Cor.
    12: 6-9; Romans 12:3; I. Peter 1:21-23; John 6:47; I. John 5:1.

    18. Salvation is unconditional because the Scriptures teach that
    obedience to the commands of God (properly or acceptably rendered) is
    an
    evidence of an internal work having been done by the Lord. Proof: Phil.
    2:12,13; Heb. 11:6; Matt. 7:18.

    19. Salvation is unconditional because the Scriptures teach that it is
    not of works, neither a debt, but all of grace. Proof: Titus 3:5; Eph.
    2:8-10; Rom. 11:6; II. Tim. 1:9; Rom. 3:23,24; Eph. 1:7; Rom. 4:4,5.

    20. Salvation is unconditional because it is the work of God and
    according to His purposes. Proof: Matt. 19:16-26; Jonah 2:9; Isa.
    53:1-5;
    Isa. 52:16; II. Tim. 1:9.

    21. Salvation is unconditional because the Scriptures teach that the
    mission of Christ was to SAVE, not to offer, nor to try, but to SAVE
    SINNERS; not those who have ceased to be sinners by complying with
    terms,
    etc. Proof: Matt. 1:21; Matt. 16:11; Luke 19:10; I. Tim. 1:15.

    22. Salvation is unconditional because the Scriptures teach that God
    has,
    and ever has had, but one way of saving people; whether they be
    infants,
    adults, idiots, heathens, learned or unlearned, in whatever age of the
    world. All therefore, who are saved at all, are saved in precisely the
    same way. Proof: John 6:44,45; John 14:6; Luke 18:16,17; Acts 15:11;
    Rev.
    5:9.

    23. Salvation is unconditional because the church is (figuratively)
    represented, in the Bible, as a building, hence the material of which
    the
    church is composed must be passive in its preparation. Proof: Proverbs
    9:1; Matthew 16:18; I. Peter 2:4,5; Eph. 2:19-22; Psalms 127:1.

    24. Salvation is unconditional because the Scriptures teach that God is
    a
    Sovereign, that He does His will, and that He, therefore, saves all
    whom
    He purposes, or desire, to save. Proof: Genesis 1 (entire chapter);
    Isaiah 46:9-11; Isaiah 14:26,27; Romans 8:28-39; Isaiah 55:8-11.

    25. Salvation is unconditional because the Scriptures teach that God's
    love, like Himself, is eternal and immutable, and that those saved are
    embraced in His love. Proof: Jeremiah 31:3; Malachi 3:6; Galatians
    2:20;
    Ephesians 5:25-27; John 17:22-24; I. John 3:1; Romans 9:11-16; Romans
    5:7-9.

    26. Salvation is unconditional because the Scriptures teach that God's
    love for His people, when manifested to them, produces in them love for
    God, and that His love for us, is, therefore, the cause of why we love
    Him. Proof: I. John 4:19.

    27. Salvation is unconditional because the Scriptures teach that the
    heirs of salvation were elected thereunto before the world began.
    Proof:
    Psalms 65:4; Romans 8:28-33; Romans 9:8-16; Ephesians 1:3-5; II.
    Timothy
    1:9.

    28. Salvation is unconditional because the Scriptures teach that Christ
    suffered (to render satisfaction) for the sins of those for whom he
    died,
    and bring them to God. Proof: Isaiah 42:4; I. Peter 3:18.

    29. Salvation is unconditional because the Scriptures teach that those
    for whom Christ died are justified by his blood, and made righteous.
    Proof: Romans 5:6-9; Romans 3:24; Romans 4:25; 5:15-19; Matthew 5:18;
    Isaiah 53:11.

    30. Salvation is unconditional because the Scriptures teach that those
    for whom Christ died are reconciled to God, by his death, and that
    being
    reconciled they SHALL BE SAVED by his life. Proof: Romans 5:8-10; II.
    Cor. 6:18-21.

    31. Salvation is unconditional because the Scriptures teach that the
    people for whom Christ died are designated in the Bible as his seed,
    his
    generation, his people, his portion, his sheep, etc., and that to these
    eternal life is GIVEN. Proof: Isaiah 53 (entire chapter); John
    10:11-16,
    27, 28; John 5:37-39; John 17:1-5.

    32. Salvation is unconditional because the Scriptures teach that Christ
    gave his life a ransom for those for whom he died, and that he
    purchased
    them with his blood. Proof: Matthew 20:28; Mark 10:45; I. Corinthians
    6:20; I. Peter 1:18,19.

    33. Salvation is unconditional because the Scriptures teach that those
    who have redemption in Christ (those redeemed by him) have, also,
    forgiveness of sins. Proof: Colossians 1:13; Ephesians 1:7; Matthew
    26:28.

    34. Salvation is unconditional because the Scriptures teach that Christ
    gave himself to redeem the people for whom he died FROM ALL INIQUITY.
    Proof: Psalms 130:8; Titus 2:14; Isaiah 53:6.

    35. Salvation is unconditional because the Scriptures teach that Christ
    obtained ETERNAL REDEMPTION for those for whom he died. Proof: Hebrews
    9:12; Hebrews 10:13,14; I. Peter 1:18,19.

    36. Salvation is unconditional because the Scriptures teach that Christ
    redeemed the people for whom he died (all the way) to GOd. Proof:
    Isaiah
    35:8,9; Revelation 5:9... Brother Glen [​IMG]

    [ August 19, 2002, 06:37 PM: Message edited by: tyndale1946 ]
     
  2. KenH

    KenH
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2002
    Messages:
    32,485
    Likes Received:
    0
    Thanks, Brother Glen. I especially appreciate the Scripture references. [​IMG]

    Ken
    A Spurgeonite
     
  3. sov. grace

    sov. grace
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2002
    Messages:
    10
    Likes Received:
    0
    Note also that not only the sheep are determined
    before the foundation of the world;Eph. 1:4-11,so
    also was the reprobate actively ordained by God to this condemnation. Jude 1:4,Rom. 9:10-18
     
  4. Sovereign Grace

    Sovereign Grace
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2002
    Messages:
    53
    Likes Received:
    0
    Amen, brother!
     
  5. Sularis

    Sularis
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2000
    Messages:
    940
    Likes Received:
    0
    *sigh* I sense im going to have to do a lot more praying

    Salvation is NOT unconditional (except if God puts conditions on it)

    Salvation being unconditional would mean that everyone would have it. And not everyone that God picked not because they're special but because they want to espouse doctrine that is not properly preached or taught. God picking people IS a condition :eek:

    Ie You will be saved ONLY if God picks you

    [Language edited]

    No one is immediately saved at birth. Everyone transitions from heathen to Christian. Unless you care to argue that the elect are like Christ and without sin or have NEVER sinned?

    Thus must the blood of Christ be applied to every electee, and since I have never heard the exact measurement of blood used in the washing, Im going to make the foolish assumption that the amount doesnt matter, that even only a single drop of the Messiah's blood could wipe away the sins of all creation. I really hope no one argues with that thought.

    God so loved the world - the whole stinkin, war-torn bleedin mess - with the dictators, rapists, and Baptists, that He gave His only begotten Son,
    that if the thickheaded, ugly bags of water got it through their skulls and believed, that He would gladly give them the salvation for which His Son bled and died.

    Now as to the rest of us non-elected baptists - although I do believe I was elected, Im going to give up that "title", that "prestige", and ask you all some questions. What would happen if "free will" and election both existed simultaneously? Would it destroy the Word of God?
    Would it make God more or less powerful?

    Here are my answers #1 - Nothing would happen, because that is what is

    #2 - No, it would solve a lot of "conflicts" of doctrine, and readjust some attitudes that need some serious rubbing in something.

    Man is not supreme God is!
    So You're elected - I'm not what does that say about you?

    #3 - It would make MY God even more powerful - in that His elections - can thwart the free will of man. That no matter what choice we make; God has a contingency plan for every single possibilty that has, is, and will ever happen. Think of the power and knowledge of that God

    ____________________

    Language such as used in this post (now edited) will not be tolerated. If you cannot discuss these matters decently, then refrain from participation. Thanks.

    [ August 21, 2002, 09:33 AM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]
     
  6. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2001
    Messages:
    6,179
    Likes Received:
    226
    Sularis said:
    ... I might add btw that is very colorful language you used in your post... Now to your question... These are nice assumptions but give me some scripture to prove your point! I've given many to prove mine... Show me where free will and election exist simutaneously for a dead man?... Brother Glen :confused:
     
  7. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 4, 2001
    Messages:
    21,763
    Likes Received:
    0
    They do. NO one is saved against their will. When you misdefine free will, you end up with the view that you have. When you define free will consistently, you end up believing in election.

    n/a

    This is a common attempt that falls short. First, it does not increase his power. It makes at best, no statement about his power. In your view, God is not exercising power, he is simply reacting. But even in that, he is not doing anything at all. Every is caused by prior choices so God just sits back and watches. His contingency "plan" involves only the natural consequences of the "free choices" of man. This is in contradiction to a God who "works all things after the counsel of his own will." But more than that, you have a God who knows a bunch of useless information. He has to sit back to wait and see which scenario will happen. Then the other billions of scenarios for that given instant just lie "known" but "unused." That is simply logical absurdity. God knows all things that might have ever happened, but he knows them only as possibilities, not as actualities.
     
  8. ScottEmerson

    ScottEmerson
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2002
    Messages:
    3,417
    Likes Received:
    0
    Do you not state that free will is simply acting within one's nature? Isn't it possible that we could disagree with that "nature," insofar as the Holy Spirit enlightening all men?

    Your words would better be stated, I think, "When you define free will as I do, you end up believing in election."
     
  9. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 4, 2001
    Messages:
    21,763
    Likes Received:
    0
    Well I presume it is possible. The question is, Is it consistent (the word that I used). Consider this: the unsaved man does not have a new nature. That is why he is unsaved. Therefore he can only make choices in accordance with the nature he has (the old sin nature). I do not find the idea that the Holy Spirit enlightens all men in Scripture. The "light" in all men (John 1:9) is the image of God that everyone has. It does not save but it does communicate a knowledge of God that man rejects. 1 Cor 2:14 talks of the unsaved man who "cannot understand" spiritual things. IT is a word of ability and it precludes understanding God, sin, salvation, and Christ.

    Second, and more importantly, God is free, but he cannot make choices contrary to his nature. If you define free will consistently, you have to 1) assert that unsaved man has a new nature (which calls into question the need for salvation); 2) assert that God is not truly free (which calls into question the nature of God); 3) agree with me [​IMG] ...
     
  10. Eladar

    Eladar
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2001
    Messages:
    3,012
    Likes Received:
    0
    Sularis is right.
     
  11. Sularis

    Sularis
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2000
    Messages:
    940
    Likes Received:
    0
    Or 4)disagree violently with you

    Free Will - Election as methods of salvation are in opposition to each other and thus cannot be in affect for a single person - Either a single person is saved by election - or he is saved by free will - but another person could be saved by free will; while the first is saved by election

    As to the verse requirements you posted verses
    for election somewhere I assume on this board

    Well then there's my proof for election existing part

    And there are verses posted on the board defending "free will" - thus I dont have to defend that part existence either

    Im not saying "Free Will elections" - but rather Im stating that God has 2 paths up to the gate that is His Son.

    One is the path of God presents evidence of here I am, and gives the grace so that man may choose against his fallen nature. (prevenient grace)

    Two is the path that God seeing a set of choices coming up that He wants to make sure never happens, He divinely forces His Will upon His creation giving His grace in that manner.

    The problem is that everything God does is logical, rational, just not immediately understandable; since most or all of us will have to wait until heaven to get the basics down proper
     
  12. ScottEmerson

    ScottEmerson
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2002
    Messages:
    3,417
    Likes Received:
    0
    The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.

    How in the world do you come to that conclusion, especially since John didn't have the light at all, but was merely the witness to the light in the previous verse?

    Joel 2:28 to the end of the chapter states that God would pour His Spirit on all people, and he separates His servants from all people, drawing a distinction that seems to show that both groups would at least experience in some way the Spirit.

    We still have a problem with the definition of nature. If nature means something different, then even a "consistent" reading of free will could lead to the Arminian theology.
     
  13. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2002
    Messages:
    5,178
    Likes Received:
    0
    Salvation is conditioned by only one thing. [John 1:12]
     
  14. Sularis

    Sularis
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2000
    Messages:
    940
    Likes Received:
    0
    The nature of man:

    1) Evil
    2) Unable to do good or choose good unless it be for evil reasons; or there's so much direct evidence otherwise.
    3) Capable of reason but biased towards evil
    4) Not anxious to change ones state
     
  15. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 4, 2001
    Messages:
    21,763
    Likes Received:
    0
    This is simply wrong. I don't know how else to put it. Ask any Calvinist. They do not believe that God saves people against their will or sends people to hell against their will. You have been listening to people who do not know what they are talking about.

    So if you admit you don't understand it, why do you "violently disagree"?? What if you are wrong and I am right? After all, I have shown Scripture and theology in support of what I have said?
     
  16. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 4, 2001
    Messages:
    21,763
    Likes Received:
    0
    You miscited it. John was not the light but was sent to bear witness to the light.

    Everybody now experiences the Spirit in some fashion. That is not at issue. But all are not effectually called by teh Spirit to salvation.

    A nature is a complex of attributes. There is no problem there. A consistent reading of free will will never lead to arminian theology unless you suggest that it is possible for God to sin. If God cannot sin, then under your definition, he cannot be free. I think God is totally free and I think God cannot sin. "Freedom" is limited by the nature, not by the ability to choose from theoretical possibilities.
     
  17. Sularis

    Sularis
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2000
    Messages:
    940
    Likes Received:
    0
    *Cough* *Cough*

    Larry - If the Spirit is involved in calling

    non-effectual calling - the reprobates
    effectually calling - the elect

    What makes it effective? The choice of man?
    In that case free will
    Or the Spirit in that case FORCED - unless you come up with a refutation

    Election is not a gentle process - its not God walking up to man and saying "Hi, I like you, guess what yer saved"

    Salvation depends on a choice
    God's - which I define both as having done and ongoing - done in that He sent His Son to pay for the entire world's sin *(see note) - ongoing He sovereignly determines the course of creation - by imposing His will - whether or not He does that directly or indrectly is still a matter of debate

    *note - If man refuses God's payment - He goes to Hell

    An example my semi-blasphemous brother came up with - is that it seems that God's payment is like a limited time voucher - its issued to every man, woman, child - and its good for one free salvation - but man has to cash it in - If he doesnt its worthless - And the problem is that that the voucher has an expiry date - its called death
    So Larry, Im willing to admit I dont understand everything - but Im willing to state that I know as least as much as you, and shouldnt have to put with you putting words into my post while I was TRYING to be polite and less confrontational - [inappropriate personal comments edited. If you have personal issues, then deal with the personally]

    Why repost verses that have been posted to death?
    I need not prove the existence of Free Will or Election since the verses have already been posted

    I am merely making the suggestion that if both exist - then they somehow they have to work together - and thus I dont have to disprovc the validity of one or the other - just fanatics who refuse to admit the other's existence

    [ August 26, 2002, 04:20 PM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]
     
  18. HeisLord

    HeisLord
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2002
    Messages:
    55
    Likes Received:
    0
    We can't reconsile every verse in the Bible, but that does not mean that they are not true.

    I mean... who are WE? His ways are far above our ways..God refers to the elect...but not to a SELECT...HE also says that Whosoever...We may not be able to place those two concepts hand in hand, but God does and can. Two statements that have helped me (and they weren't on any of these threads):

    1. God's door of predestination swings on the hinges of foreknowledge, Not election.

    2. The sign over the door of salvation says 'whosoever.' After walking through it, and looking back over the top of the door, it says 'elect.'

    Agrippa, the rich young ruler, the crowd in Acts 7:51 all had the opportunity to be saved, but they rejected it. That doesn't mean that God didn't die for them. His own chosen race rejected Him, that doesn't mean that Jews can never be saved.

    Again, 2 Peter 2:1 proves that Christ died for false prophets that rejected Him. IT doesn't get any plainer. I reject Calvinism, Arminianism, and any thing else that goes against obvious verses in the Bible.
     
  19. KenH

    KenH
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2002
    Messages:
    32,485
    Likes Received:
    0
    Can a person dead in sin elect himself unto salvation?

    Ken
    A Spurgeonite
     
  20. Sularis

    Sularis
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2000
    Messages:
    940
    Likes Received:
    0
    change the word elect

    Here's the biggie - is the concept of prevenient grace valid? If it is - then the whole bunch of Calvinist-like people need to re-evaluate their theology - If it isnt - God still has another surprise for you
     

Share This Page

Loading...