Salvation/Loss of the soul

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by J. Jump, Jul 9, 2006.

  1. J. Jump

    J. Jump
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    StraightandNarrow you are putting words in my mouth just to make me look bad. That's not the way to get to the bottom of an issue.

    I made a statement that people can lose their souls yes, because that's what the Bible says. However I didn't say let's not focus on the particulars, because it is an impossibility to focus on the particulars of someone losing their soul. That's what I said. God didn't give us the details as to what all was going to happen at that point.

    What I said was that a possible reason He didn't give us details is that is not what we are to be focused on. Just knowing that it is a possibility and what little information that we are given is bad enough for us to know we don't want to have that experience, so our foucs should be on not losing our souls, instead of what does losing our souls look like.

    And people losing their souls is a MAJOR point. That's why the vast majority of the NT is written so that Christians will know how to live a victorious life via the Holy Spirit so that they will not experience the loss of their soul.
     
  2. Joseph_Botwinick

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    Huh? Is this a carryover from another thread?

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  3. J. Jump

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    JB yes it is. The what sins thread got shut down and we were all over the place as one might imagine after 30-plus pages, so I just decided to separate some issues :)
     
  4. standingfirminChrist

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    The statement was made to the effect that we should not focus on particulars.
     
  5. J. Jump

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    It strikes me as very funny that I was the originator of the material yet SFIC and S&N want to tell me what I meant as the author.

    Folks I know exactly what I meant. No if you read it a different way I can't help that.

    The bottom line is God did not give us the particulars (details) on what all will take place in the losing of one's soul. I don't know why He didn't give us the details, but He didn't.

    My guess is is that He didn't want us to focus on the details, becuase our focus is to be in doing what He told us to do so that we won't lose our soul. We need to be focused on what we are supposed to be doing, not on the details of what will happen if we don't.

    He has given us enough information on what will happen if we don't that the picture should be clear enough that you don't want to experience it.

    If we keep our focus on where it needs to be the details of losing one's soul what matter at all. Now if you are not doing what God has told you to do then I guess you might be concerned with what's going to happen to you, but the bottom line is He didn't give us much detailed information. And He didn't give it to us for a reason. If we needed to know He would have told us.

    So the statement was made more in line with it is an impossibility to focus on the details because they are not given, than we shouldn't focus on them. We can't because they are not there.

    So let's just deal in what has been revealed and that is we can either lose our life (soul) now and gain it in the age to come or we can save our life (soul) now and lose it in the age to come.
     
  6. StraightAndNarrow

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    I'm dancing around scripture? You make a statement about people losing their soul and then when I question you about it you say let's don't focus on the particulars. I wouldn't call that a minor point people losing their souls.

    Anyway, yes I did use Strong's concordance on whther the word meant eternal. Crosswalk.com calls Strong's Exhaustive Concordance the most complete, easy-to-use, and understandable concordance for studying the original languages of the Bible. Combining the text of the King James Bible with the power of the Greek and Hebrew Lexicons, any student or pastor can gain a clear understanding of the Word to enrich their study.

    So, unless you can convince me that you have a stronger background than the writer of Strong's I choose them as the better source. The not talking about New Age. We're talking about eternity.
     
    #6 StraightAndNarrow, Jul 9, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 9, 2006
  7. J. Jump

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    Couple of things on this S&N. HopeofGlory already addressed your Strong's issue. And secondly, I would be careful holding on so tightly to the idea that to the smartest person goes the truth, because God operates on quite a different scale.

    And to steal a line from Forrest Gump (what a terrible movie) "And that's all I got to say about that." :)
     
  8. StraightAndNarrow

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    Seriously, are you talking about annihilation of the damned soul rather than eternal punishment? Some people chose to interpret Hell that way. It's not eternal punishment but rather punishment followed by nothingness. Personally, I don't accept that belief.
     
  9. Hope of Glory

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    The funny thing about it is that I've read every post that J. Jump has ever made, and he's never made such a statement. In fact, he's stated the exact opposite about an unsaved person.

    Yet, for some reason, you keep wanting to come in here and say that he has stated this. Why? What is your motivation to spread an untruth? Why can you not simply confront what has been said, without making up something that is utterly false about what has been said?

    You remind me of the false witnesses in Matthew 26 who lied about what Jesus had said, by saying that he had said something that he had not said, by embellishing the truth, to put it politely.
     
  10. genesis12

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    What happens to the soul that gets lost?
     
  11. StraightAndNarrow

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    So, is your interpretation from the BDAG Lexicon? If so, please submit the whole analysis so I can benefit from a better source.
     
  12. StraightAndNarrow

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    Lexicon John 3:16

    ουτως γαρ ηγαπησεν ο θεος τον κοσμον ωστε τον υιον αυτου τον μονογενη εδωκεν ινα πας ο πιστευων εις αυτον μη αποληται αλλ εχη ζωην αιωνιον

    For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life

    ουτως adverb
    houto hoo'-to: after that, after (in) this manner, as, even (so), for all that, like(-wise), no more, on this fashion(-wise), so (in like manner), thus, what.
    ________________________________________
    γαρ conjunction
    gar gar: assigning a reason (used in argument, explanation or intensification; often with other particles)
    ________________________________________
    ηγαπησεν verb - aorist active indicative - third person singular
    agapao ag-ap-ah'-o: to love (in a social or moral sense) -- (be-)love(-ed).
    ________________________________________
    ο definite article - nominative singular masculine
    ho ho: the definite article; the (sometimes to be supplied, at others omitted, in English idiom) -- the, this, that, one, he, she, it, etc.
    ________________________________________
    θεος noun - nominative singular masculine
    theos theh'-os: a deity; figuratively, a magistrate; by Hebraism, very -- exceeding, God, god(-ly, -ward).
    ________________________________________
    τον definite article - accusative singular masculine
    ho ho: the definite article; the (sometimes to be supplied, at others omitted, in English idiom) -- the, this, that, one, he, she, it, etc.
    ________________________________________
    κοσμον noun - accusative singular masculine
    kosmos kos'-mos: orderly arrangement, i.e. decoration; by implication, the world (in a wide or narrow sense, including its inhabitants, literally or figuratively (morally) -- adorning, world.
    ________________________________________
    ωστε conjunction
    hoste hoce'-teh: so too, i.e. thus therefore (in various relations of consecution, as follow) -- (insomuch) as, so that (then), (insomuch) that, therefore, to, wherefore.
    ________________________________________
    τον definite article - accusative singular masculine
    ho ho: the definite article; the (sometimes to be supplied, at others omitted, in English idiom) -- the, this, that, one, he, she, it, etc.
    ________________________________________
    υιον noun - accusative singular masculine
    huios hwee-os': a son (sometimes of animals), used very widely of immediate, remote or figuratively, kinship -- child, foal, son.
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    αυτου personal pronoun - genitive singular masculine
    autos ow-tos': the reflexive pronoun self, used of the third person , and (with the proper personal pronoun) of the other persons
    ________________________________________
    τον definite article - accusative singular masculine
    ho ho: the definite article; the (sometimes to be supplied, at others omitted, in English idiom) -- the, this, that, one, he, she, it, etc.
    ________________________________________
    μονογενη adjective - accusative singular masculine
    monogenes mon-og-en-ace': only-born, i.e. sole -- only (begotten, child).
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    εδωκεν verb - aorist active indicative - third person singular
    didomi did'-o-mee: to give (used in a very wide application, properly, or by implication, literally or figuratively; greatly modified by the connection)
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    ινα conjunction
    hina hin'-ah: in order that (denoting the purpose or the result) -- albeit, because, to the intent (that), lest, so as, (so) that, (for) to.
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    πας adjective - nominative singular masculine
    pas pas: apparently a primary word; all, any, every, the whole
    ________________________________________
    ο definite article - nominative singular masculine
    ho ho: the definite article; the (sometimes to be supplied, at others omitted, in English idiom) -- the, this, that, one, he, she, it, etc.
    ________________________________________
    πιστευων verb - present active passive - nominative singular masculine
    pisteuo pist-yoo'-o: to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), i.e. credit; by implication, to entrust (especially one's spiritual well-being to Christ)
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    εις preposition
    eis ice: to or into (indicating the point reached or entered), of place, time, or (figuratively) purpose (result, etc.); also in adverbial phrases
    ________________________________________
    αυτον personal pronoun - accusative singular masculine
    autos ow-tos': the reflexive pronoun self, used of the third person , and (with the proper personal pronoun) of the other persons
    ________________________________________
    μη particle - nominative
    me may: any but (that), forbear, God forbid, lack, lest, neither, never, no (wise in), none, nor, (can-)not, nothing, that not, un(-taken), without.
    ________________________________________
    αποληται verb - second aorist middle subjunctive - third person singular
    apollumi ap-ol'-loo-mee: to destroy fully (reflexively, to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively -- destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.
    ________________________________________
    αλλ conjunction
    alla al-lah': other things, i.e. (adverbially) contrariwise (in many relations) -- and, but (even), howbeit, indeed, nay, nevertheless, no, notwithstanding, save, therefore, yea, yet.
    ________________________________________
    εχη verb - present active subjunctive - third person singular
    echo ekh'-o: (used in certain tenses only) a primary verb; to hold
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    ζωην noun - accusative singular feminine
    zoe dzo-ay': life -- life(-time).
    ________________________________________
    αιωνιον adjective - accusative singular feminine
    aionios ahee-o'-nee-os: perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well) -- eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).

    ScriptureText.com

    What we've been discussing is the meaning of the last word in the Lexicon, αιωνιον. Here I find it does indeed mean perpetual, eternal, or everlasting.
     
  13. J. Jump

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    S&N you do realize that lexicons are not infallible and inerrant like Scripture right?

    Again John 3:16 is not speaking of eternal salvation, because eternal salvation is a one-time event not a continual believing which is what John is talking about.

    You can keep searching and doing all that you want. The simple matter of fact is that you can't change the language. The verb is present tense believe. If you believe then you will have life, but as soon as you stop believing then you lose that life.

    So if you want to accept John's gospel as eternal salvation then you can not hold to eternal security, but the Bible teaches it so if John is about eternal salvation that gospel direct contradicts several other Scripture to make God's Word a lie and not the Truth.
     
  14. Marcia

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    It says "eternal life" which in context is clearly salvation. It's about being born again from above. It's spiritual regeneration.

    Every time "eternal life" is spoken of, it's clearly in the context of salvation.

    To make eternal life mean anything else is to ignore the plain and clear meaning of the text.
     
  15. J. Jump

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    Marcia do you believe you are eternally saved the very moment you believe?

    No what you have done is fallen into the same trap as the rest of Christendom which has believed a bad translation of the word.

    Again eternal doesn't even fit in this defintion, because the life is not eternal because your salvation has a beginning point. Eternity has no beginning and no end.

    Your salvation has a definite beginning point so it can not be eternal life. The definition just plainly doesn't fit no matter how hard to try to force it.
     
  16. Marcia

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    Yes.

    Guess so. Me and my church and my seminary and my mission board. And the apologetics ministries I work with. Guess we are all wrong. :tongue3:


    This word also means "agelong." It means forever. They used this word to mean everlasting, forever, etc.

    The passage is not saying my salvation had no starting point, but that I am given the eternal life that God has and is able to grant to those who believe in Christ a part in the eternal life that only comes from Him. When one trusts in Christ, one enters that eternal life of Christ -- we are not eternal in the sense he is, but we enter that eternal life of Christ that he has and is eternal because he is. To have eternal life in Christ is not to mean our nature is eternal in the sense of having no beginning.

    Looking at it another way, if God knew eternally that I would be saved, in a sense my salvation is eternal from God's viewpoint.

    Do you reject the concept of eternal life in Christ?
     
  17. StraightAndNarrow

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    Of course. But I also believe that we as Christians must continually study the word. Sometimes that requires using commentary, lexicons, etc. But you're the one who pointed out I was using a weak concordance (Strong's). So now you seem to have reversed position and are saying they are of little value.

    In any event, I'm sticking with the same interpretation of John 3:16 I've always had. It is talking about eternal salvation.
     
  18. standingfirminChrist

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    Eternal life is in Christ alone. Those who are in Christ, are partakers of His life. It is His life that had no beginning and no end. So, essentially, when we trusted Christ as our Lord and Savior, we were made partakers of the life that never had a beginning, nor will have an ending.
     
  19. Hope of Glory

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    If you want to see this properly formatted, right click and save here: John 3:16 Parsed

    JON 3: 16* ___________________________

    *Greek ConC/Wrd==**Parsing ============ ==== Trans. of JON 3: 16 T/ord
    outos 3778 ---- adv --- -- ------- *in this way 3
    gar 1063 ---- ---- --- -- conj--- for 1
    agapaw 0025 aor act ind 3s ---verb *loved 3
    o 3588 mas artl nom s ------- the 2
    qeos 2316 mas ---- nom s noun--- God 2
    o 3588 mas artl acc s ------- the 6
    kosmos 2889 mas ---- acc s noun--- world 7
    wste 5620 ---- ---- --- -- conj--- *so that 8
    o 3588 mas artl acc s ------- the 9
    uios 5207 mas ---- acc s noun--- *Son 10
    o 3588 mas artl acc s ------- the 11
    movogevns 3439 mas adj acc s ------- only born 12
    didwmi 1325 aor act ind 3s ---verb *He gave 13
    iva 2443 ---- ---- --- -- conj--- * in order that 14
    pas 3956 mas adj nom s ------- *every one 15
    o 3588 mas artl nom s ------- the 14
    pisteuw 4100 pres act nom s mas-Ptc *believing 17
    eis 1519 ---- ---- acc -- prep--- *into 18
    autos 0846 mas ---- acc s pronoun *Him 19
    mn 3361 ---- part --- -- ------- may not 20
    apollumi 0622 aor mid sub 3s ---verb *himself perish 21
    alla 0235 ---- ---- --- -- conj--- but 22
    ecw 2192 pres act sub 3s ---verb *he may esteem 23
    zwn 2222 fem ---- acc s noun--- life 24
    aiwvios 0166 fem adj acc s ------- agelasting 25

    The Greek text and grammar are from:
    *26th ed. Nestles, Allen Text, American Bible Society; New York
    **Gramcord Institute, 2218 NE Brookview Dr,; Vancouver WA 98686
     
  20. J. Jump

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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by J. Jump
    Marcia do you believe you are eternally saved the very moment you believe?



    Then you can not hold the position that the gospel of John is speaking of eternal salvation, because John is not talking about a one-time event, being saved the very moment you believe. John is talking about if you continue to believe until the end then you will be saved. He uses the present tense verb which means as long as I am believing then I am okay, but the moment I stop believing I not okay.

    So you either have to admit that John isn't talking about eternal salvation or you have to admit that salvation is not a one-time event that settles the issue the very moment you believe, because the two contradict each other.

    You speak as though that is not possible, but yet you would say that a person that attends a catholic church that their people, their priest, their mission board, they apologetics ministries are all wrong. Why is it that "yours" is right on the money?

    Again don't place so much faith in tradition, but study the Word to see if what you have always been taught is actually correct.

    It's obvious that what you and I have always been taught about the Gospel of John is incorrect, because he wasn't writing about eternal salvation.

    Actually the word most of the time means age-long, or age-lasting. And contextually that's what it means in John's gospel and at least his first epistle.

    It's also what is meant in the other gospels, because that's what they were writing about is the next age to come. They were writing about the kingdom that Christ is going to rule over, which is the next age and it will last 1,000 years.

    I believe our life is everlasting. It has a beginning point, but will go on into infinity, never ending.
     

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