Salvation minus repentance equals salvation?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by convicted1, Jun 17, 2011.

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  1. convicted1

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    In the "Ultimate source of salvation" thread, I posted this:

    Originally Posted by convicted1
    The only "thing" we can do is repent and believe the gospel. Jesus stated in Luke 13:3,5 "Except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish." Now, none of us can repent until God begins drawing us. But it is us who must repent and believe.

    Now, Bro. DHK responded with this:

    Aside from the Book of Acts and the gospels, can you show me where repentance is part of the gospel? The Gospels were pre-cross, and Acts is a historical book which is a book of transition. Most of our doctrine actually comes from the epistles. Where in the epistles does it tell us that repentance is part of the gospel?

    Well, lets start out with this, Bro. DHK.

    2 Cor. 7:9 Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing.

    10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

    I am somewhere in the middle in regards to this. I mean, that when God begins drawing someone, if they take heed to it from the very start, it will lead them down the trail of repentance that will save their soul. If they reject His call, this Godly sorrow will not set up. I know that my DoG Brethern will not agree with the latter portion of that statement, and some of the "A's" may not agree with the first part.

    Here's my testimony, again. When I heard the FWB preacher on the radio preaching from Daniel chapter 3, I knew that I was heading to the fiery furnace of hell, if my soul wasn't saved when I died. God began drawing me, and I took heed to it. I didn't have a clue on how to be saved, so I thought that if I quit doing "this", He would save me....I was still lost. I then thought if I quit doing "that", He would save me......I was still lost. My heart(soul) was crushed inside of me, wanting to be saved, but I had no idea how to get there. When I worked myself out of "works",meaning I had done everything I knew to do, I was still lost. It was when I quit trying, and started trusting, that He came in, gave me His blood, which cleansed my soul, gave me that drink of living water, that is in me now as a well of living water springing up into everlasting life, and He clothed me with a "long white robe", or you can also call it my wedding garment.

    God had called me for years, but I would push that call aside, and go on living my life my way. But when I began listening to Him, and what He wanted me to do, then, and only then, did this Godly sorrow set up. So unless you repent of your sins, you will perish. This "baloney" of "come up here and give us your hand, and repeat this prayer after me, and 'poof' you're saved" garbage has weakened the local churches. Give me the ones when THEY COME and give you their hand, that the tears are rolling down their cheeks, thanking Him for saving their soul!! Now, it's those who strenghten the local church.

    So, repentance is required if you obtain salvation.

    Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

    i am I AM's!!

    Willis
     
  2. preacher4truth

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    Yep. Good post. Repentance is and still will always be an ingredient in ones salvation.

    We have way too many in our churches that "believe" and have no changed life whatsoever.

    They have faith in faith, or in the prayer they said.
     
  3. Jaocb77

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    Merely believing is not enough. For even the devil believes and trembles. It must be a belief which stems from fully comprehending what Christ accomplished at the Cross of Calvary. Acknowledging that one is a sinner who cannot save himself. This leads to repentance when we realize our fallen nature, which then leads to faith in action.

    I have noticed on here the frequent habit of some that whenever they do not have the answers, they will resort to asking what they believe are trick questions in the hope of watching the other stumble, back off or concede. This is what the Pharisees tried to do with Jesus. Why can't people on here just discuss and provide their evidence? Responding to a person's question by throwing more questions back is not answering, but is a complete cop-out..
     
  4. Jaocb77

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    Amen! Excellent post.
     
  5. preacher4truth

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    Get used to it, have thick skin, and just believe Scripture.

    Don't accept folks who want to diminish passages due to whatever. It's all the counsel of God.

    Also, be prepared when you do provide solid proof according to the request, for a rule change, or other nonsense, false accusations on your part, even supplied with links to the alleged infraction that lead to nothing to do with what they accuse &c &c &C ....so the responder can dismiss everything God says so he or she can remain "right."
     
  6. Old Union Brother

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    Great OP....This goes right along with your P4T's poll over in Gerneral Baptist Discussion.

    I think that many start the trail of repentance but fall short because of the church climate we live in today. In this day and time of the repeat after me alter calls many so called churches have generated huge congregrations of people that couldn't tell an experience of grace if their life depened on it.......and it does.
     
    #6 Old Union Brother, Jun 17, 2011
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  7. Jaocb77

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    You hit the nail right on the head. When I first joined this forum and saw the hostile responses, I had to double check and make sure I wasn't on the cult forum.

    How a Christian can deny that repentance is necessary for salvation and clearly taught in the Holy Scriptures is unbelievable.
     
  8. preacher4truth

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    All it is when persons do this, is that one is making attempt to draw attention to ones self for ones alleged superior knowledge and enlightenment.

    Persons love to diminish and marginalize the book of Acts. I won't do this to Gods Word, but it's become popular among the "learned" because they think it adds to ones intellectual savor.

    Paul preached repentance during his epistle writing.

    He was getting the word out that God commands all men everywhere to repent.

    Today? We have people running around telling people to believe, and asking them an uncsriptural question "would you like to know if you died today you can go to heaven?" Well, whaddaya think they're gonna say? That is not preaching the Gospel.

    When people say they've led someone to the Lord, I find many times they led them in this prayer, and you never see hide nor hair of the person, usually they will never be interested in the things of God, nor in church. And the person will cling to the "he said I'd go to heaven if I prayed that prayer" and they go through life unchanged.

    Go figure.

    Tell me how that person who "believes" has been transformed, show me by the life of these that it's true. This is not purely hypothetical, it happens too often.

    Now, go show me someone that believed they were lost, then believed the Gospel, and that one also, was in turn granted repentance by God, and finally did by this both believe and repent. This person will show fruit of a genuine conversion.

    Should we rush over to that fellow and say, "no no, you don't need to repent!!!"

    Utter foolishness to even suggest this.
     
    #8 preacher4truth, Jun 17, 2011
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  9. HankD

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    True belief (faith) goes hand-in-hand with repentance.
    IMO they cannot be separated. They are two sides of the same coin.

    The basic etymology of the word repentance is meta-noia (A change of mind).

    When we believe (according to the biblical concept of belief), everything changes and we are taken from the world and placed in the Body of Christ passing from death unto life:

    2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.​

    John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.​


    HankD​
     
  10. Jaocb77

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    Many today teach "easy believeitism." Short cuts to the true Gospel of Jesus Christ which are totally meaningless. These same people love these "new" and "improved" bibles. These "easy to read" condensed versions because they don't have time to study God's word. Therefore they "miss" the subtle changes and word/verse omissions. They love a "feel good" church that doesn't preach hell, repentance, or even the need to be spiritually born again. There are many "dead" people filling up the pews.

    The Holy Scriptures teaches very clearly that one must confess with the mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe with the heart. How such a person who claims they have done this,can go through life without the least desire to repent is beyond me.
     
  11. psalms109:31

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    Debate site

    This is a debate site. We should bring out in the open what we believe might or could be true to see what others on the other side think about it, without being belittle, or belittling others.

    DHK to bring out in the open what is different from the norm of what believers believe to see it hashed out among brothers and sisters is what we should do, as long as it doesn't break the rules of the site here.

    I am not saying this is the case here, but have you ever had to debate something you don't believe and convince others it is true?
     
    #11 psalms109:31, Jun 17, 2011
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  12. Jaocb77

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    I'm not sure what the point is in trying to debate something one believes is not true and see if they can convince others that it is. Are you implying that some on here are really just playing devil's advocates? If one knows something is doctrinally wrong, but goes around trying to convince others that its true, then one is being deceptive.

    I really don't see the point of arguing among fellow Christians.
     
  13. JesusFan

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    As I posted to DHK before on answering one of His posts...

    JUST because the Bible clearly commands us to both repent and believe in Jesus Chrsit in order to be saved in both the Gospels and in Acts...

    Why made the point about it not being in the Epistles and thus excused us from teaching that?

    If it is found in the NT texts, isn't it still considered to be part of the requirements in order to become saved?

    or do we all take our theology from just Epistles forward, especially pauline, as a Hyper-Dispy would?
     
  14. Jaocb77

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    Good points. Some of these questions that are asked on here causes confusion such as asking why repentance is not in the Epistles. Are we divided or united as born again believers in Christ?. Many read these sites although they never post. And many could actually be unsaved even though they may attend a Baptist church. What kind of witness are we to be then?
     
  15. psalms109:31

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    No I am not saying for anyone to be the devil's advocate, or convince others something we don't believe in. We are in Christ trusting in Jesus and refuse to see the other side of the debate. I learned a lot through debating old belief, I would of not seen the other side until I debated what I once believed.

    I would still being trying to earn my salvation, or thinking I can lose it.

    Debating is suppose to be civil, arguing isn't.
     
  16. preacher4truth

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    Once each of us answered him and showed the error, he began blurring the whole thread, cross-referencing the thread, providing links that lead to nothing in the immediate context, changing rules, re-phrasing his questions, adding to them other criteria that had nothing to so with his initial questioning, changing what he initially asked in many ways as to further blurr the thread in order to have an excuse to not accept the facts presented to him.

    The rejection of NT epistle examples proving repentance is of the Gospel still is what really amazed me.
     
  17. psalms109:31

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    We should do what Christ leads us to do by His word.
     
  18. InTheLight

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    Good post. Repentance means 'change of mind'. Repentance is not feeling sorry for your sin though it can accompany repentance.

    I didn't see DHK's original post about repentance but it is true that repentance was preached mainly to the Jews, in fact, only to the Jews in the Gospels. Why? Because the Jews needed a 'change of mind' about Jesus being the Messiah. They needed to do a complete 180 turn in their beliefs about the Messiah being on earth in their time and also about the identity of the Messiah. Then they needed to believe in Christ as being the lamb of God and trust Him for forgiveness of sins.

    The Gentiles weren't waiting for a Messiah. They didn't need to have a radical change of mind about the Messiah. Rather they needed to believe that Jesus was the Son of God, that He had died for their sins and had been raised to life again. That too, is a 'change of mind', not about Messiah, but about the way of salvation. That's why repentance was rarely used in conjunction with Gentiles.

    Yes, repentance is valid for people today, but there is a difference in degree between the repentance a Jew needed and that of a Gentile. Jews needed to acknowledge Jesus as Messiah, then that he was the sacrifice for their sins and was resurrected; the Gentiles only that Jesus was their Savior and was resurrected.
     
    #18 InTheLight, Jun 17, 2011
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  19. preacher4truth

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    God commands all men everywhere to repent. Acts 17:30

    The apostles took notice that God ALSO granted repentance unto life to the Gentiles, implying they get in the same way, and further implying repentance of the Jews and gentiles as a necessary ingredient in the salvation "process." Acts 11:18.

    It doesn't have to be said every other letter for us to get it's necessary.

    I wouldn't only limit the Jews repentance to that ONLY of who Christ is, or at least be cautious not to make it seem there are two different avenues. When they heard the Gospel in Acts, they heard about their wickedness in it. Their sin was exposed in addition to their treatment of their Messiah. They are eternally coupled, belief and repentance. I can therefore also see that repentance would be a change of mind concerning their sinful ways, as well as those of us who are Gentiles. All are the same under the Gospel message.

    Most converted will say when asked what they repented of, that it is of their sins, they had a change of mind. Now instead of enjoying sin as before, most struggle against it. Their mind being changed.
     
  20. JesusFan

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    Know what is being said here, but want to make sure that we are not saying here that God has 2 ways in dealing with jews and gentiles in how to become saved...

    think that we all should agree that repentance is part of the message to give out to others, as we all need to change the way we view our sinfulness and helpessness in saving ourselves when faced with dealing with a Holy God!
     
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