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Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by Christopher, Mar 26, 2002.
How do you view God's dealing with mankind in salvation?
[Romans 9:18] Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
[II Timothy 1:9] Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
It seems so obvious to me. God is sovereign. If there were even one single, little, lonely, free radical of one little lonely atom that was what arminians call "free" then God would not be sovereign.
The wonderful thing is that history has been completely, and totally laid out by a loveing, Sovereign God. There are no "surprises" for God. God doesn't go opps, I never thought of that. Of gosh, I just wanted to save Joe but he won't let me. Oh I'm so sad. My Sovreign will has been thwarted. You know, I begged, I pleaded, I tried and tried and tried to save Joe, but after all his free will can over rule my sovereignity. I mean if his free-will wasn't stronger than my sovereignity he would just be a puppet. I'm so sad. Oh, my poor, defeated Son. I sent him to die for Joe, but Joe just wanted to be free and since Joe being free is more important and powerful than my sovereign will, my Son died in vain. Joe's sovereign will was stronger than my sovereign will. Oh well, I'm still God even tho my creatures can do what they want and of course, that's the MOST important thing. Whatever my fallen, depraved, sinful creatures want, that's the most important thing.
Man, it is sickening to think that people advocate that. Maybe not in those terms, but that is what I read in their theology all the time.
Not on my life would I worship a God or put my trust in a God like that. No whimp of a God for me. No sir!!!! My God does as he pleases because He is Sovereign.
God is Sovereign!... God being Sovereign do you believe he uses the written preached word to save anyone eternally?... What is the purpose of the written Gospel? Is it for more than feeding and instructing sheep?... If the written Gospel is the means used to save anyone eternally what was used before the written Gospel?... Is the Old Testament as well as the New the written Gospel?... The scriptures state Noah was a preacher of righteousness, what written Gospel did he preach from? If a man is in the deepest darkest part of the world and the Gospel never reaches him is he in possession of Salvation or is he bound for hell because God couldn't reach him? How did Salvation reach men before missionaries?... Just some of my thoughts...Brother Glen
[ April 08, 2002, 01:52 AM: Message edited by: tyndale1946 ]
I think we all know how you would answer the questions you asked! No mystery there!!!
Can God save someone in the darkest jungle that never heard the gospel? How did God save people in the time of Noah? Actually, God DIDN'T save many people in the time of Noah, did he?
As for the people in the jungle, since God is Sovereign he can do what he pleases. For the same reason, I believe, that sacraments cannot save because that would put salvation in the hands of man, God can and does save who he wants. If he wants to use the preaching of the gospel to save some he will. If he uses a missonary to save people, he will. But, for me at least, the main point is not the means he may or may not use, but the GROUNDS of salvation. And to me that is the imputed righteousness of Christ. A person is REGENERATED, then is able to believe, then is justified by faith, then is sanctified, then gloridied. That's my understand of it.
Glen, The purpose of written revelation is to be an inerrant testimony to the message of God. In the times before the written record there was direct revelation, which was what Noah preached. There is no longer direct revelation and so the written message keeps the message we are to preach preserved.
If someone in the darkest jungles doesn't hear the gospel, it is because they were not elect. This has been true whether in times of revelation or not. Those whom God has elected will certainly hear the gospel. You of all people should be convinced of this. Your position taken here sounds like an Arminian who entertains the thought that "if only these people had heard they may have responded, so on that possibility God must make a way for them." It is fallacious reasoning from an Arminiana and it is fallacious from a primitive Baptist too.
Pastor Larry said:
So what you are saying is God elected them because he was going to saved them by means of the written Gospel... To make a long story short the doctrinal Unconditional Election that the Calvinists embrace is now Conditional on the preached word... I wouldn't believe that drivel in a month of Sundays!... Brother Glen
So what you are saying is God elected them because he was going to saved them by means of the written Gospel... To make a long story short the doctrinal Unconditional Election that the Calvinists embrace is now Conditional on the preached word... I wouldn't believe that drivel in a month of Sundays!... Brother Glen </font>[/QUOTE]It is weird how there are so many aspects that we can agree and disagree on. I'm right with you on this one Brother Glen.
No, that's not what I said at all. It is exactly the opposite. God is going to save them by the message of salvation contained in the written word because he elected them. Election is prior to preaching. The election is unconditional. That is not compromised. But the call to salvation encompasses the means by which that call is accomplished. When God ordains teh ends, he also ordains the means.
You have no instance of salvation in the NT apart from the propositional message of the gospel. In scripture you do have several statements of God's intent to save people through this message. You have a declared necessity for the message preached. In short, you have everything in Scripture that contradicts your position. Your position minimizes the call of the Great Commission, makes useless Paul's suffering which he gladly endured for the sake of the elect.
Pastor Larry said
You just said again what you said you didn't say! Sounds like Gospel Regeneration to me! So the election is made but those elected still have to hear the Gospel to be saved and God will carry out the means to make sure they hear it! Why don't we all wait until the everlasting Gospel is preached during the tribulation period and those that hear and believe it will be saved and those that don't will be damned!
Revelation 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
Everyone on here knows my position on what is the purpose of the Gospel is to instruct and feed sheep!... Jesus told Peter to feed my lambs and feed my sheep and "NEVER" to make one!... Brother Glen
[ April 15, 2002, 07:26 PM: Message edited by: tyndale1946 ]
Read it again then because I did not say what say I said. You said I said that God elected them because he was going to save them through his word. I said just the opposite -- that God saves them through the preaching of the word because he elected them. Election is prior.
Consider the following passage:
1 Peter 1:23 for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God.
It is later said to be the living and enduring word of God that was preached to you. Clearly, the preaching of the gospel is necessary for salvation. And here it is connected with being born again, which every takes as a reference to regeneration.
Romans 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
You got it. This is exactly what Paul was referring to in 2 Tim 2:8-10: 8 Remember Jesus Christ, risen from the dead, descendant of David, according to my gospel, 9 for which I suffer hardship even to imprisonment as a criminal; but the word of God is not imprisoned. 10 For this reason I endure all things for the sake of those who are chosen, so that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus and with it eternal glory.
It's too bad he didn't share you philosophy. He didn't need to be imprisoned for preaching. All those people would have been saved anyway. Of course I jest. But the Scripture clearly shows the necessity of the propositional message of the gospel for salvation.
And everyone on here who knows Scripture can't understand why you believe what you do. I don't think Peter ever made sheep. And the purpose of the gospel is to bring people to a cognitive knowledge of God, sin, Christ, and death for salvation.
I understand what you are trying to guard against but it is a bad way to go about it. There is no faith without a message to be believed. And no one will hear the message unless it is spoken. You have singlehandedly removed all the impetus of the great commission where we are told to preach the gospel to every creature, to preach repentance for the forgiveness of sin in his name, to make disciples by baptizing and teaching them.
The Scripture is clear -- the preached word is the means by which God brings conviction of sin and a knowledge of the need of a Savior.
The Bible also says that everyone can find God if one seeks Him. If God predestined someone to be apart of the elect, then that person would seek God and find Him.
God has given us all of creation to know of His existance and God has writting his truth in our hearts.
As Paul writes, it is not those who hear the word of God that are saved, it is the ones who do the word of God that are saved. Paul writes that there are those who haven't heard the word of God, yet do His will.
This is true and certainly not incompatible with what I have said.
The message of his existence is in creation so that all are without excuse. This is a far cry from teh message of Christ's death on the cross for our sins and the necessity of faith and repentance. This message is not contained in nature.
I think you are conflating a couple of things here. Pharoah did the will of God but was not saved. No one will be saved apart from hearing the word of God and responding in obedient faith to it. Hearing alone is most certainly not enough; but hearing is indispensable to believing.
In line with what you said, James2, I remembered an incident which had a deep impact on me. Sent me from being Roman Catholic to atheist then back full circle to God.
We had an uncle who was a very devout Roman Catholic and he, partly, raised me. He was very strict, very stern, and I was scared of him.
One day he came home with brows totally crossed and feeling very mean because he did not have the money for his children's tuition fees in an exclusive Catholic school.
It was near 6p.m., and we had a tradition of gathering at 6 pm to say the rosary.
Well, at the landing of his stairs were all kinds of statues and icons and he just picked up everyone of them and hurled them to the floor.
Pieces of plaster of paris arms, legs, and torsos went flying around and we kids all watched in shock because we were all brought up under strict Catholic catechism and I remembered thinking he was going to be punished by God on the spot.
Well, of course, nothing happened.
After he chilled off, he picked up whatever pieces he could and glued them together and set them up where they used to be and called us to prayer.
Now, we were all scared of him.
But I had a cousin who just slipped out the door and whispered to me:
No way will I kneel down before a God I can throw around. I need a God who throws me around.
No offense to Roman Catholics on this forum.
The problems with gospel regeneration are manifold, it seems:
1. It ties down the ability of God to save whom He will to the ability of man to obey the "great
2. It ties down the salvation of His people to their ability to hear. What about the deaf ? God has no elect among them ? What about the idiots and the imbeciles and the morons (I don't know what else to call them, but I don't mean any
offense). I had an elder brother who had meningitis and though he recovered his mental abilities never recovered. If you wanted him to open the door, you had to tell him to close it.
Now, if one says that God will provide their salvation to the deaf and dumb and idiots in His own way, or that He will give them special treatment if He has His elect among them, then gospel regeneration just flew out the window.
3. Gospel regeneration also ties down His own timetables as to Christ's return and the final judgment to the ability of men to go out and preach the gospel.
4. Christ should've exclaimed "It's almost finished" at the cross instead of "It is finished".
In the Bible, there is another cry which says "save yourselves from this untoward generation" which I believe sums up the purpose of the gospel preaching.
The eternal salvation of all of God's elect is finished, done, with or without the most eloquent preacher or the dullest one reaching the bend at the street corner or the most remote rainforest in an undiscovered continent.
However, God wants the good news carried
to His elect wherever and whenever and however those whom He called to preach are able to, without tying down His sovereignty to save those whose names He had written down in the Lamb's Book of Life from the foundation of the world.
The gospel is to bring life and immortality to light, to convert those it reaches to God, but not regenerate them, the two being different.
Those whom the gospel reaches are to form themselves into a body, under One Lord and One Baptism, separating themselves unto God and thus
experiencing timely salvation which is predicated on their obedience to God while on this earth.
God's sovereignty cannot be tied down to man's ability to preach the gospel. He has His own in every nation, kindred, tongue, tribe. Jesus purchased and redeemed all that the Father had given Him, past, present, future.
Matthew 27:38 Then were there two thieves crucified with him, one on the right hand, and another on the left.
39 And they that passed by reviled him, wagging their heads,
40 And saying, Thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days, save thyself. If thou be the Son of God, come down from the cross.
41 Likewise also the chief priests mocking him, with the scribes and elders, said,
42 He saved others; himself he cannot save. If he be the King of Israel, let him now come down from the cross, and we will believe him.
43 He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God.
44 The thieves also, which were crucified with him, cast the same in his teeth.
Luke 23:39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.
40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?
41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
Now all of us here that believe in the doctrine of election know this is the perfect illustration of it. The elect and the non-elect crucified with the Lamb Of God. I made a comment on another forum that the written Gospel is not the means used to save Gods elect eternally speaking. The elect are saved by the Lamb Of God only and since both reviled Jesus and one had a change of heart, where did he get it?
If the workings of God apply to one, why say some they don't apply to all? Where was the good new for the elect of God hanging on the tree? The good news is the Living Gospel was giving his sinless lifes blood right next to him. He was taking the sins of this malfactor thief into the land of forgetfulness. What about the other man was he of the elect? He didn't address him so according to scripture he was not.
My dear brother in the faith PinoyBaptist said:
Peter lovest thou me more than these... Feed my lambs and feed my sheep. How wonderful it is to tell those that are hungering and thirsting after righteousness that the Lord will truly fill them with his truths... Brother Glen
Pharoah wan't necessarily a part of the elect. The same could be said of Judas. The point is that if the gospel is required, then those people who live in areas where the gospel could not possibly be heard couldn't possibily be saved. In other words, if what you say is true, then the Bible is wrong.
God predestined sin - God created it - God is the oringinator of it
Mankind is responsible for it
If ALL things are predestined then mankind has NO responsibility
If mankind has Free Will then God may still predestine, and man can be responsible for their own sins.
Having the existence of Free Will in reality actually increases the omniscience, and omnipotence of God, since He sees all the results from all the choices and ACTIVELY works to cull the future 'timelines' so that everything will come to the end that He has ordained. And that no matter what man may do, God knows that man could've done it, and He has a plan in place for every eventuality, for every choice, for every little thing. That adds volumes and volumes to His knowledge and power. The Calvinists idea of God seems smaller by comparison.
Either have the guts to admit to "double" predestination; or admit that single predestination is a logical fallacy that cannot occur without the construct of free will.
The justice of God demands eternal punishment
The blood of Christ fulfills that justice
There is NO elect that does not still have to accept and believe. Its just that the elect are given little choice but to believe being confronted with a set of circumstances orchestrated by God to bring them unto Him.
If the elect must accept and believe why not the un-elect? Your answer is regeneration? Regeneration occurs by the Word of God, or the Spirit of God?
Calvinists themselves will admit that creation testifies to a living, powerful, creative God; but stop short of saying that such testimony can regenerate; but they state the Bible can. What is the difference between them? Both testify to God's nature and existence! Both are authord by the Lord of all creation! And both are so vast and grand that no one man can truly understand them.
It is the constant testimony of nature, the gospel, and the Spirit; which allows man to look into the light and choose it of their own free will and yes there is election happening too
[Luke 23:42] And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
Obviously the thief on the right side of Jesus had already heard the good news and believed it, else the thief would not be calling Jesus, "Lord."
No one has stated the written gospel saves anyone. By the way, what do you think the purpose of Jesus was in going to those who were "in prison" and preaching unto them. If the gospel were not necessary, why did those saints not just ascend into heaven? They all heard the gospel because Jesus went and preached unto them. You ignore Scripture.
(2 Thess. 2:14) Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
(1 Cor. 1:18) For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
(Rom. 1:16) For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
(1 Cor. 1:21) For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
That is not gospel regeneration for your information...
"The Holy Spirit uses NO MEANS for quickening which is against that which is taught in orthodox churches today. The prevailing erroneous teaching is that the need only to appeal to Matthew 13 to see that the seed sown is the Word (gospel)
which was scattered upon four types of soil (hearts). However, only one of the four soils (hearts) was made good; the other three soils had the seed (Word/
Gospel) yet yielded no increase. No farmer would ever say that the sowing of seed (Word) would bring life to dead soil (heart). Regeneration therefore is not brought about by the preaching of the gospel but by the Omnipotent, Sovereign Grace of God; “not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth
mercy (Rom.9:16) But what about Romans 1:16? Doesn't the apostle Paul state that the gospel of
Christ is the power of God unto salvation? I must admit that I also thought this verse taught that the gospel itself had power to *give life* until the Lord showed me the remainder of the verse...to every one that BELIEVETH. The gospel is the power of God unto salvation ONLY to those who already have been given the gift of faith! For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: BUT THE WORD PREACHED DID NOT PROFIT THEM, not being *mixed with faith* in them that
heard it (Heb.4:2). The Word cannot profit any soul spiritually until it be mixed with faith. Therefore, the Word is only effectual unto those WHO ARE quickened, having no power itself to bring about life, but bringing salvation (new birth, sancti-fication etc.) unto those who have been given the gift of faith...Question: But if the gospel is the power of God unto salvation.. why would the regenerate need the gospel since they already have life? The Lord Jesus Christ told a regenerate *seeking* (Rom.3:11b) Nicodemus..Ye must be born again (Jn.3:7). Those who are quickened must be born again: Being
BORN AGAIN, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, BY THE WORD OF GOD, which liveth and abideth for ever (1 Pet.1:23)." --Steve Reaver
And next I guess you're going to tell me that there are some who will not believe. That is not true because Jesus said, "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:" (John 10:27). Just look at the previous verse: "But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you." The sheep don't reject Jesus, they follow him. I'm not saying they'll believe the very first time they hear it, but God will bring them to a belief in His glorious gospel.
(2 Thess. 1:8) In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that OBEY NOT THE GOSPEL:
It's not like the elect are required to believe in order to be saved, but they will. It's not as if there's a list of requirements they must fulfill.
(Acts 13:48) And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and AS MANY AS were ordained to eternal life believed.
AS MANY AS and not one less!
[ April 16, 2002, 06:15 PM: Message edited by: Historic Baptist ]
Historic Baptist I'm sorry but you misinterpreted the scripture what the other man said was this:
If thou be Christ, save thyself and us. Does this sound like one of the elect? To those of us who believe in this God honoring doctrine he was of the non-elect. The one he told will be with him in paradise that day and to the other one he said nothing... You draw your own conclusions!... Brother Glen