Salvation of OT Saints

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Shortandy, Feb 12, 2010.

  1. Shortandy

    Shortandy
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    I have some thoughts that I have been working through in an awesome debate/discussion that I am having with a close brother in Christ. The question how were saints like Abraham and David saved to be with God for eternity?

    As you post answers I will have more thoughts to share but for now I will leave you all with this question. Thanks:thumbs:
     
  2. Scarlett O.

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    For those like Abraham, Abel, Enoch, Noah, and Sarah, the answer is found in Hebrews 11:13.

    "These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth."

    They had faith in what (Who) was to come - even though they never saw it.

    Just like we have faith in what (Who) came before us - even though we never experienced it.

    The Law could not save anyone.

    Hebrews 10:1-4 - " For since the Law has merely a rude outline (foreshadowing) of the good things to come--instead of fully expressing those things--it can never by offering the same sacrifices continually year after year make perfect those who approach [its altars].

    For if it were otherwise, would [these sacrifices] not have stopped being offered? Since the worshipers had once for all been cleansed, they would no longer have any guilt or consciousness of sin.
    But [as it is] these sacrifices annually bring a fresh remembrance of sins [to be atoned for], Because the blood of bulls and goats is powerless to take sins away.
     
  3. OldRegular

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    I would add to Scarlett's excellent response the following:

    Galatians 3:6-9
    6. Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
    7. Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
    8. And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
    9. So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
     
  4. David Michael Harris

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    Because they feared God and knew what sin was.
     
  5. Marcia

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    I agree with the previous posts. The OT saints believed in the true, living God and were saved via faith.
     
  6. Jedi Knight

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    1 Peter 1:10-11 Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, searching what, or what manner of time, the SPIRIT OF CHRIST WHO WAS IN THEM was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. I believe Old Testement Saints were indwelt by the Holy Spirit like the New Testement Saints.
     
    #6 Jedi Knight, Feb 12, 2010
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  7. AnotherBaptist

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    Well, the Prophets certainly had the Spirit in them when they Prophesied and wrote what God Inspired them to. But what about those who weren't Prophets, like Saul? He also was anointed and had the Spirit in him, but then had it taken away when he disobeyed God.

    Do a word search on the word Mercy in the OT. It was the equivalent of Grace in the NT. Then do a word search on Grace in the NT. You'll be surprised at what you'll see (or rather won't see) in the Gospels. Mercy and Grace surely abide where the Holy Spirit abides.
     
  8. Jedi Knight

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    I believe scriptures shows a BIG difference in losing the anointing on your life vs losing the Holy Spirit living on the inside.
     
    #8 Jedi Knight, Feb 12, 2010
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  9. AnotherBaptist

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    And a difference also between having the Spirit with you versus having the Spirit in you:

    The Spirit wasn't in them yet at this point.
     
  10. Jedi Knight

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    Are you sure? Genesis 41:38 So Pharaoh asked them, "Can we find anyone like this man, one in whom is the spirit of God?" Daniel 4:8
    Finally, Daniel came into my presence and I told him the dream. (He is called Belteshazzar, after the name of my god, and the spirit of the holy gods is in him.) Numbers 27:18 The LORD replied, "Take Joshua son of Nun, who has the Spirit in him, and lay your hands on him. If the Holy Spirit does not indwell a person, this means they are still spiritually dead and no spiritually dead person can have any faith toward God because they are spiritually dead.
     
  11. AnotherBaptist

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    Well if I wasn't sure that Jesus said what He said, then I could always wonder why He would Promise the Coming of the Spirit when in your view the Spirit was already there.
     
  12. Winman

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    You need to understand this verse is speaking specifically of prophets. The average believer did not have the Holy Spirit in the OT.

    The believers during Jesus ministry did not have the indwelling Holy Spirit.

    John 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
    39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)


    The OT had prophesied that God would pour out the spirit upon all believers.

    Joel 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
    29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.


    Peter confirmed this in Acts.

    Acts 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
    17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:


    Before Pentacost, the Holy Spirit dwelled with believers, but not "in" believers.

    John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

    Notice Jesus told his disciples that the Spirit dwelled with them at the present and then says the Spirit will be "in you" later. Very important.

    Num 11:29 And Moses said unto him, Enviest thou for my sake? would God that all the LORD'S people were prophets, and that the LORD would put his spirit upon them!

    Notice that not all of the "LORD'S people" had the Spirit, only the prophets.
     
    #12 Winman, Feb 13, 2010
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  13. Jedi Knight

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    Winman, I respectfully disagree. Your trying to put "upon" as if this is same as "indwelling". Jesus said the Spirit would be upon you AND in you. There is a diffrence in the Spirit's power upon us and the Spirit indwelling us. When Jesus was baptised the Spirit came down upon Him to empower Him for the Ministry. The disiples had the Spirit inside already ,BUT they were to wait for the power to come upon them"anointing".
     
    #13 Jedi Knight, Feb 13, 2010
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  14. Winman

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    No, the Spirit dwelled with the disciples, but was not in them until Pentacost.

    John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

    Read that carefully. Jesus said the Spirit "dwelleth with you" in the present tense, and then says "and shall be in you" future tense.

    Notice in the verse before this Jesus said God would give "another" Comforter.

    John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

    What does Jesus mean by "another Comforter"? I believe Jesus himself was the first Comforter, and he abode and lived with the disciples. Now he must go away, and promises to send the Holy Spirit who will live "in" them.

    John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

    If the disciples already had the indwelling Holy Spirit as you believe, then why would Jesus need to send the Spirit to them?
     
  15. Jedi Knight

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    John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, HATH everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. The Lord told Nicodemus about the need to be born again and that as a teacher of Israel shouldn't you have known this? That which is born of flesh is flesh and that which is born of spirit is spirit.
     
    #15 Jedi Knight, Feb 13, 2010
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  16. Winman

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    They did have everlasting life in that they were kept by Jesus until the day of Pentacost when they received the Holy Spirit.

    Gal 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

    This verse shows that a person receives the Holy Spirit through faith. So, a person can have faith, but not yet have the Spirit. And I will show this.

    Acts 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

    This question Paul asked does not make sense if Paul assumed all believers had the Holy Spirit. So Paul shows you can believe and not have the Spirit.

    Abraham did not receive the promise of the Spirit.

    Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

    Acts 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

    The Holy Spirit was one of the promises to believers in the OT, but none received the indwelling Spirit until after Pentacost.

    Isaiah was a believer, but prophesied the pouring out of the Spirit was future.

    Isa 32:15 Until the spirit be poured upon us from on high, and the wilderness be a fruitful field, and the fruitful field be counted for a forest.

    Ezekiel also prophesied the future giving of the Holy Spirit.

    Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
    27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.


    The Jews understood that God promised to pour out the Holy Spirit upon them in the future. And this is what Jesus confirmed in Acts.

    Acts 1:4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
    5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.


    Those who believed were kept until they received the Spirit. Those OT saints who died went to paradise. I believe when Jesus ascended that he took those saints and paradise itself and at that time gave the promise of the Spirit to them.

    Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
    9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?


    The scriptures say the Holy Spirit was not given to believers until Jesus was glorified, which took place after he ascended. I believe this is when he gave the Spirit to OT saints, and gave the Spirit to living saints on Pentacost.

    John 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
    39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)


    To believe as you do you have to ignore John 7:38-39 that says the Spirit was not yet given to believers, also the several promises Jesus gave his disciples of sending the Holy Spirit when he went away.
     
    #16 Winman, Feb 13, 2010
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  17. Jedi Knight

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    And the LORD your GOD WILL CIRCUMCISE YOUR HEART AND THE HEART of your offspring, so that you will love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live (Deu 30:6). When he turned his back to leave Samuel, God gave him ANOTHER HEART. And all these signs came to pass that day (1Sa 10:9). So the LORD said to Moses, “Take Joshua the son of Nun, a man IN WHOM IS THE SPIRIT, and lay your hand on him (Num 27:18). Isaiah 63:11 Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where is he that PUT HIS HOLY SPIRIT WITHIN HIM?
     
    #17 Jedi Knight, Feb 13, 2010
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  18. Marcia

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    God did give His spirit to some OT people, especially the prophets, but this was a bestowing of the Spirit for certain times. No one received the permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit upon faith - that came later in the NT.

    We see this from the fact that God took the Spirit away from some OT people, such as Saul.

    Please note these:
     
    #18 Marcia, Feb 13, 2010
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  19. OldRegular

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    A question for Freewillers: Did GOD choose certain people to Salvation in the Old Testament?
     
  20. psalms109:31

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    Hebrews 11

    Hebrews 11

    Romans 11
    20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

    22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.


    but praise be to God

    Romans 11:
    23And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

    Hebrews 3:
    Warning Against Unbelief
    7So, as the Holy Spirit says:
    "Today, if you hear his voice,
    8do not harden your hearts
    as you did in the rebellion,
    during the time of testing in the desert,
    9where your fathers tested and tried me
    and for forty years saw what I did.
    10That is why I was angry with that generation,
    and I said, 'Their hearts are always going astray,
    and they have not known my ways.'
    11So I declared on oath in my anger,
    'They shall never enter my rest.' "[Psalm 95:7,8]

    12See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness. 14We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first. 15As has just been said:
    "Today, if you hear his voice,
    do not harden your hearts
    as you did in the rebellion."[Psalm 95:7,8]

    16Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? 17And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the desert? 18And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed[Or disbelieved]? 19So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.

    Jude 1:
    5Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord[Some early manuscripts Jesus] delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe.


    So was the chosen for salvation cut out for unbelief or for not being chosen in the old testament?
     

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