Salvation of the Soul (Page One)

Nice try Steaver, but you didn't address the text at all. Basically what you said was I know it says future, but it doesn't really mean future. Sorry that doesn't work.

And yes I believe we have to compare Scripture with Scripture, and because of that when I compare James 1:21 with Romans 5 I see that you are misunderstanding what Romans 5 is talking about. Because not a casual reading, but a plain reading of James 1:21, I Peter 1:9 and Hebrews 10:39 tell us that the soul is not yet saved. And so do many other passages in Scripture, I just gave you three that with just a plain reading of the text, no interpretation necessary one can see that if they have eyes to see and ears to hear.

The problem is that Christendom doesn't want to take the plain reading of Scripture, because they don't like the results. Therefore they have come up with all kinds of ways of working around the texts that they don't like.

You have simply chosen to say that future really doesn't mean future, but that doesn't make you right Let me just quote you so you don't think I'm making this up:

James told the saved folks to receive the word, which means they hadn't yet, but you say they already had received the word. You can't just rewrite Scripture to fit into your theology.

He told them they needed to do something that wasn't done at that point so that their souls could be saved.

To me future means future.

By the way do you believe man is a bi-part being or a tri-part being? What do you believe the purpose of salvation is? And what do you believe happens to a non-faithful, disobedient, non-overcoming Christian at the judgement seat of Christ? Does every Christian get to rule and reign with Christ no matter how they lived here?

Just some questions so I can get a further idea of where you are coming from.

 

This is becoming quite comical Steaver. I highlighted your quote, which says that James did not tell saved folks to receive the word, then you turn right around and quote the verse which says AND RECEIVE. Steaver are you actually serious? How can the text say AND RECEIVE, but you claim that James didn't actually say that.

And you really want me to believe the way you do? Come on . . .

Your point makes zero sense. James tells them to receive something they already have . . .

Exactly . . . that's been my whole point all along. James is not talking about eternal saving faith, James is talking about faith that deals with the sanctification process. However sanctification is not automatic.

I'm not sure where you are getting your information on the Greek word, but receive is actually an imperitive (command) and it is in the middle deponent which generally means it is active. So it is something the listener to to be active in not something that is going to happen to them.

If they will lay aside these things and if they will receive the word they will be able to have their souls saved.

You are right I did not read through your two pages of stuff. I didn't need to because I knew before I even started once you said warned folks not to be fooled by those that say the soul isn't saved, I knew what the previous rambling was about, and I knew that whatever it contained it was going to be incorrect, because I already know that the soul is not saved.

I have given you plain evidence that is the case and yet you still try to work you way out of the text and keep "your" beliefs in tact.

So what is the man going to lose?

So fallen man was/is/will be saved just be glorify God. While I think the salvation event does bring glory to God I don't believe Scripture spells that our as the purpose of salvation as much as a result of salvation. There is a reason we are saved, and it's goes much beyond bringing glory to God.

Wow so a believer can live any ole way they please here in this life, be a womanizing, mudering cheat that curses with every other word, gets drunk every weekend, beats his children, unrepentant of it all and he still gets a position in the kingdom. So this begs the question why in the world do we want to deny ourselves in this life when you are telling me we can have the best of both worlds? I can have all this world has to offer, living for self 24/7 and I can still have a position in the kingdom.

Seriously where do you come up with this stuff? Greek word "us" - hemas Greek word "souls" - psuche - us is not souls - us is us.

 

Posted by J. Jump

Hi J. Jump and Steaver,

Steaver, am I correct in assuming that what you are saying is that James is telling them to quit succombing to the temptations of the world and to embrace, or make use of, the word that they have received?
Verse 21 in James reminds me of the personal struggle that Paul had with himself as mentioned in Romans 7:21 through the end of the chapter. Then he makes the point in Romans 8:1 that:
"Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus."-NIV

Again, I believe Steaver is speaking of the way they use what they have received.

James is not talking about the saving event, but the evidence of having been saved. The sanctified life is automatic evidence of a justified person.

"And those he predestined, he also called: those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.-Romans 8:30 NIV(emphasis mine)
We are glorified the moment we are saved. The mark of this(a true believer)will be our sanctified life, doing our best to lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receiving(making use of)the engrafted word. Said word having the power to save us, as James says in vs 21. That same word also having the power to keep us.
"To him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy"-Jude 24 NIV

"And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose."-Romans 8:28 NIV
My sole purpose as a Christian is to bring glory to God in everything I do. That is part of my sanctification; the evidence of my justification. What could possibly go "much beyond bringing glory to God"? There is nothing greater than bringing glory to God, by both receiving Him as our personal Savior, and by spending our lives doing our best to return the love He showed and continues to show us.

I see nothing in Steaver's posts to indicate that he thinks a believer's life will not be transformed by the justification of God. A true Christian's sanctified life will be a by-product of his/her justification.

 

Sorry, but there isn't any evidence that this it true in Scripture. We are saved unto good works that we SHOULD walk in them. For some reason Christendom wants to re-write that Scripture to say we WILL walk in them, but that's just simple not what it says.

If a "true" Christian (whatever that means, does that mean there are "false" Christians?) is automatically going to live a sanctified (separated) life then there would be absolutely no need to command it, to be reminded that we need to be separated. There would be no need for James to tell them that they need to receive the word. If it was automatic they would have already been doing it.

Again Scripture in so many areas is so easy if we just let the text say what it says without trying to manipulate it.

 

Well Steaver I spent about 20 minutes typing a response to your post that got wiped out when I hit a wrong button. I don't have time to re-type it, because we are just going in circles. The conclusion you have drawn from James 1:21 is flawed. James is telling them to receive (put into pracitce) what they have been taught.

I agreed that James is speaking of the sanctification process. Another way to express that is the salvation of the soul. Bottom line is James 1:21 tells us their souls were not saved, because if their souls were already saved then James would have said that something was able to save something that was already saved.

I do want to address some other things though.

See this is why I don't like posting with folks like you. Because as soon as you run out of your "proof" texts and can no longer talk about the the subject at hand you start in with personal attacks.

Please tell me what I have accused you of that I am practicing. See you people always post these accusations with no evidence. Wonder why that is? Why didn't you show us where I have accused you of something I am doing instead of just making a broad statement?

More character attacks hmmmm . . . so that's what this has boiled down to eh? What exactly am I in need of repentance in your eyes?

They suffer the loss of their bad works? What in the world does that mean? So the reward then is receiving good works? I have no idea what you are talking about.

Basically that is what you said. Here was my question: Does every Christian get to rule and reign with Christ no matter how they lived here?

And here is your response: I would say yes, everyone will be given their deserved position according to their own personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

You said that the way a person lived here on this earth has no impact on whether one gets to rule and reign with Christ. You said the only thing would be that their position might not be as great. I believe you said that someone could be a dog watcher or catcher or something like that in the kingdom.

So yes you basically said that a Christian can enjoys all this world has to offer them and still rule and reign in the kingdom. Now is that what you believe? It is certainly what you said.

You are right about that. I haven't studied your position, because until you can explain away three clear verses that contradict what you are saying there is no need to study what you have said, it would be a waste of time. I don't say that to offend you, but I don't like wasting time on something that I know isn't going to be productive in some sense.

James 1:21 alone tells us that the soul is not saved, so whatever it is that you have posted as "proof" is moot until you can explain how James says the soul is not yet saved when it really is. You have yet to do that, so I still see no need spending any kind of significant time reading what you have posted in your first two posts.

Steaver again the childish comments . . . do we really need them . . . seriously?

What you are wanting to do is move onto step 2 without settling step 1. There is no need to answer your questions until you can prove that James is lying about what he said. He said the soul is not saved. So until you can prove that James isn't true then there is no need to proceed.

Steaver you haven't given any evidence that holds up. All you have basically said is James didn't say receive even though the text says receive. That's the only evidence you have presented, so until you can come up with something better we are stuck.

The rub is receive. That is the word that you LEAVE out in your conversations. All you want to talk about is engrafted. Steaver what does receive mean?

Receive means they don't have it yet. They have the teaching (doctrine), but they haven't received it yet, as in they are only hearers of the word (doctrine), but they are not yet doers of the word.

So until they become full fledge doers of the engrafted word (receive it) their souls will not be saved. Because receiving the engrafted word is able to save that which is not saved.

I will probably conclude with this Steaver (depending on your response). Until you want to accept James 1:21 for what it says there really is no point in continuing on. James 1:21 plainly tells us that the soul is not saved. There is no need for interpretation or anything like that, just the plain reading of the text tells us that. We have to let their words stand as their were written. James doesn't talk about a past salvation, so we can either believe that or not.

 

If the soul is the mind, why would we want to save it? The spirit returns to God, securing eternal salvation. Of what use is the mind, will, emotions in Heaven? I have a body, I have a mind. The spirit was imparted to me when I became a born-again believer in Christ. Its purpose is to overcome the mind, the will, the emotions, the natural man. The spirit is in me to subdue the soul. The spirit is the communicator with God. What purpose would the soul serve in Heaven? If I am saved, spiritually, why would I need to be concerned about saving the soul, which is antagonistic toward God, which is always at war with the spirit, which is that part of my consciouness that yields to sin?

Please -- no long-winded speeches or miles of scripture quotations. Cut to the chase.

 

That is a gross, disgusting misinterpretation of what a born-again believer can do. No born-again Believer believes that, or practices sin. Secondly, born-again Believers do not inherit, nor do they have a place in "the Kingdom" that was promised to the Jews. I guess the latter belongs in another thread. Jump, you don't rightly divide scripture, nor do you understand salvation by grace through faith, the gift of God to all who believe.

 

Well the cut to the chase is we should want to save it, because Scripture says we should. James 1:21 tells us the soul is worth saving. The Bible always says those that will lose their life (same Greek word for soul) will find it in the age to come, but those that save their life (soul) now will lose it in the age to come.

Hopefully that is shorth and sweet enough for ya

Really please show me where Scripture says Christians can't live like that. And mind you I didn't say they could without consequences, but Steaver has responded that a saved individual can live like that and still have a place in the kingdom. So maybe we should all believe like Steaver and then we wouldn't have any rules or commandments to live by and we would still get to enjoy the inheritance of the firstborn despite being unqualified for it.

Fortunately or unfortunatley however you want to look at it Scripture doesn't allow for that.

Well that's what Steaver said indirectly, now whethere he will come back and correct his statement or not I don't know. And I would beg to differ that a Christian can not practice sin. No evidence of that, and it doesn't take much to look out over Christendom and see that doesn't hold water.

You are right in that born-again believers will not have a part in the physical kingdom that was promised to the Jews, however believers are being offered positions in the spiritual kingdom that was first offered to Israel and then taken away and offered to a new nation.

Well then set me straight and tell me how believing in the death and shed blood of Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God, Who died on my behalf a sinner is not salvation by grace through faith. Please explain to me how I am not rightly dividing the word. I am interested to hear your take.

 

I'm not sure I understand what J.Jump is talking about. It sounds as though he's saying the spirit is saved, but the soul is yet to be saved. I guess the spirit and soul go to different places?

1 Thess. 5:23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Sound like we'll stay in one piece to me.