Salvation Question

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Marco, Nov 2, 2005.

  1. Marco

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    Hello,

    I came across something in the New Testament that has confused me. I imagine many new Christians have asked this question before.

    I thought, and please correct me if I am wrong, that if you believed in Christ and that he died for your sins that you would achieve Salvation...that works or good deeds had nothing to do with it?

    Anyway, I came across Matthew 25, specifically versus 31-46. Why does Jesus say some are saved due to deeds but others who call him Lord, that did no deeds (feed the poor or visit a prisoner) are not? I understood this to mean that those in question believed in Jesus but some failed to do certain things he liked.

    I may have misunderstood this whole verse. I imagine if one was a strong believer in Christ he would do good deeds anyway, but I thought Salvation could not be lost no matter what? Could somebody explain this to me? Thanks very much and I apologize for the simple question...I just have to know.

    Thanks in advance.
    ~Marco

    [ November 02, 2005, 02:25 PM: Message edited by: Marco ]
     
  2. Johnv

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    Marco, I don't think Matt 25 is saying works are required for salvation. It's instead saying that works are required as the result of salvation. One could easily wonder whether a person who claims salvation, but refuses to demonstrate it by action, truly is saved.
     
  3. ccrobinson

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    Marco, there are a number of threads on this board about losing salvation. Right off-hand, I don't remember if any of them address Matthew 25. Rather than go over the arguments for and against losing salvation, I encourage you to read those threads, read your Bible and pray about the issue.
     
  4. Salamander

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    Just have this Blessed Assurance: "All that come unto the Father by me, He will in no wise cast out"

    We work because we are saved, but there are those who work and never have been saved, thinking to gain merit with God, but of to avail, for Jesus told them, "Depart, ye workers of iniquity, for I never knew you".

    When verses are taken out of context, false doctrines ensue, assurance is lost, but the true penitent sinner can never be lost.
     
  5. bapmom

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    Marco,

    there's nothing in that passage that says that those people are saved BY those good deeds. It says that those good deeds are what showed them to be different from the other group.....

    The good works were the natural outcome of their salvation.
     
  6. TexasSky

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    Marco,

    I believe that what Christ is saying in that verse is that not everyone who claims to know Christ, does know him.

    After forty years as a Christian I've come to believe this is, sadly, far too common. People can grow up attending church, grow up quoting scripture, grow up TEACHING scripture, and yet fail to actually get to know Christ personally.

    When you DO know Christ personally doing what He says to do is just as important to you as NOT doing what He told you not to do.

    My own daughter speaks of this in her testimony. She was raised in a very good church, with a family that is full of ministers and missionaries. She made a public profession of faith when she was in elementary school, and she was baptized. She truly believed she was a Christian. I saw things in her attitude that rang alarms with regards to my discernment. I saw a lot of "theology," but very little of what was truly a Christ like spirit. That isn't to say she was bad. She wasn't. She was a wonderful girl even at her worst. She just had no compassion in her heart. She had a lot of "holier than thou," and very little humility. I didn't quite know how to approach it, so sometimes I spoke to her about the very verses you brought up. Sometimes I would say, "Hon, I understand what your HEAD is saying, but what does your heart tell you that God is saying?"

    A few years after her baptism she actually came to know Christ. The change in her whole attitude and spirit was visible over night. The love, the compassion. In the past where she'd more or less pointed fingers at "sinner" and talked about how they were going to hell with that kind of smirk that only true Baptists can get, she WEPT over the unsaved, and begged God to show her how to reach friends who were not saved. Where she asked, before, what did he do that caused him to be punished by God. She began to ask, "God, how can I help him?"

    There is an old song, "They will know we are Christians by our love." I believe that song is accurate.

    Paul says if you don't behave in a Christ like manner you were never a brother to begin with. Christ basically says the same thing.

    Being a Christian is about surrendering your life to Christ. Not about going through the motions of proper theology.
     
  7. James_Newman

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    Rebellious Christians who do not obey the Lord will not be happy at the judgment seat of Christ, they will be cast into hell for a thousand years while those who overcome are given to reign with Jesus during His millennial kingdom. Eternal salvation (being raised up on the last day) is a free gift to all who will believe on Him.
     
  8. Tim

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    I'm wondering where you possibly came up with this belief. Did you cut and paste together some phrases from your Bible to come to this conclusion?
     
  9. DeafPosttrib

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    James Newman,

    Does Matt. 25:30 saying a evil servant shall be finally released out of the fire beyond the judgment day????

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  10. James_Newman

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    no, that part is in Revelation. Man what a mess we would be in if we didn't have a whole bible!
     
  11. James_Newman

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    I'm wondering where you possibly came up with this belief. Did you cut and paste together some phrases from your Bible to come to this conclusion? </font>[/QUOTE]I'm running late for bible study, so I will just point you to an article on my church's website:
    http://www.kingdombaptist.org/article615.cfm

    There are others on there, but I would love to discuss it later.
     
  12. Marco

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    This is slowly soaking into my little head. I'm just an average man and I know there are some smart cookies on this board. Thanks for all the feedback. It's just very consuming being a new Christian because I have two camps of Christians telling me what Jesus means or likes in the Bible..."my translation is better because, or Jesus did not mean that Marco..."

    I'm going to have to rely on praying and reading the Bible.

    Thanks so much, and I will write again soon.
    ~Marco
     
  13. DeafPosttrib

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    James,

    You believe a lazy Christian shall suffer in the hell for temporary time during millennial kingdom. But there is not a single verse find anywhere in the Bible supports Joey Faust's doctrine.

    Matt. 25:30 doesn't say that a lazy servant shall be finally being released out of hell 1000 years later beyond the judgement day. Obivously, verse 30 is speak of everlasting punishment. Because of its context to Matt. 25:41 says, 'everlasting fire', clearly, it means no end time, it is forever and ever fire. Same as in Mark 9:44,46, & 48. Also, Matt. 25:30 is context to Matt. 25:46 says, 'everlasting punishment'. Use our common sense, these are speak of send disobedient people to everlasting fire is the final state or destiny separated from God. There is no promise for a disobedient servant shall be finally released out the fire after 1000 years beyond Christ's coming & judgement day.

    I strongly disagree with premillennial doctrine, and unconditional salvation doctrine. Myself used to believe them for many years. Now, I am no longer believe them. I rather follow what the Bible saying. We must listen the warnings from the Bible, and to obey it.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  14. DeafPosttrib

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    James,

    I read some of the article, which you shown to us. I did not reading it all. But, I disagree with it. The article saying "new earth" of Isaiah chapter 65 shall be pass away. ONE problem..... does Isaiah, the prophet saying that the new earth of Isaiah 65 shall be destroy beyond???? Second problem.... does Isaiah 65 saying anything about 'millennial kingdom'? Silence. Why? Because Isaiah chapter 65 does not saying 'a thousand years'. Thirdly, no doubt, Isaiah 65:17-20 is refer with Rev. 21:1-4, both are speak of future eternity state.

    Right now, we are in this present age, we are living on this present old planet earth. 2 Peter 3:10 tells us, the day of the Lord shall come, as the old earth shall be burned away, SO... 2 Peter 3:12-13 telling us, we should be eager looking for Jesus Christ coming, as the old earth shall be burned away, then we are looking for new heavens and A new earth, where faithful servants shall dwell there forever and ever.

    Premill's doctrine of earth:

    1. Old earth shall be fire, but, not whole destroyed at Christ's coming at the end of 7 year tribulation period.

    2. Old earth shall be transformed into nearly perfect condition earth during millennial kingdom

    3. Nearly perfect condition earth shall be burned away completely at the end of millennial.

    4. New earth shall be created after millennial.

    That is 4 steps. I disagree with premill doctrine.

    Bible teaches us, THIS old earth shall be burned away at once folow the coming of the Lord. Then, shall create new earth, and faithful servants shall dwell there forever and ever. That's it. Very simple and plain.

    Later I will post discuss more about judgement, salvation, and millennial.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  15. DeafPosttrib

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    James,

    Faust's intepreting of Dan. 2:44 have a serious problem. Firstly, Daniel 2:44 telling us very clear, the kingdom of God shall NEVER be destroyed, it shall stand FOREVER and EVER. Obivously, it speaks that the kingdom of God is an eternality.

    Secondly, Dan. 2:44 saying nothing about 'a thousand years'. No way you can prove Dan. 2:44 is speak of future millennial kingdom, because it does not saying 'a thousand years'.

    Use our common sense that Dan. 2:44 tells us, the kingdom of God is an eternality, it have no end. Why would you have struggling or doing guesswork on dan. 2:44 to suggest that it is millennial kingdom, whilst it is silence on 'a thousand years'?

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  16. JackRUS

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    Marco.
    Context, context, context.

    You will all notice that Matthew 25 follows chapter 24 which speaks specifically about Christ's return. Those that He is speaking about are those that are alive and remain in the flesh upon His triumphal return to the Earth for His Millennial reign.

    The 'least of His brethren' refers to the Jewish nation. Jesus was a Jew. Those that tried to help them during the Tribulation get to go on into the Millennium. Those that persecuted them or only looked out for themselves are killed. And since they died without Christ, they go to Hell.

    This Scripture in Mt. 25 is not about either the White Throne Judgement, or the Judgement Seat of Christ.

    Notice verses 31-32:

    "When the Son of man shall come in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then shall He sit upon the throne of His glory:"

    This speaks of His coming with His angels as described in Rev. 19. And we all know that He already sits at the right hand of the Father on the throne. So why then does it say that "then shall He sit upon the throne" if it's not speaking of His throne here on Earth? (Isa. 9:6)

    "And before Him shall be gathered all nations: and He shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:"

    That's the nations here on Earth. Read Rev. 20:11-15 and you will see that the dead are judged there separate from the living in Christ that have already been judged at the Judgement Seat of Christ separately.

    So then, this has nothing to do with the ione true faith alone Gospel of Jesus Christ that is stated in these and other verses from Scripture:

    Luke 7:50
    John 3:16,18,36; 5:24; 6:40,47; 11:25-26
    Romans 1:16-17; 3:20-28; 4:1-6; 5:1-2; 9:30-33; 10:9-10,13
    Acts 10:43; 11:14-17; 13:39; 16:30-31; 26:18
    Gal. 2:16; 3:2,11-14,22; 5:4-6
    Eph. 1:3,13; 2:8-9
    Phil. 3:9
    2 Tim. 3:15
    1 John 5:12-13
     
  17. DeafPosttrib

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    Jack,

    I disagree. I have to go to work now for 3rd shift job. I will make post tomorrow to discuss with you more about the context of Matthew 24 and 25.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  18. James_Newman

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    I realize that you don't believe in the pre-mil doctrine. That would explain your screen name.

    Everlasting must be defined by context. If the bible is talking about endless eternity, everlasting means for all eternity. If the bible is talking about this world, then everlasting means until the end of this world. If it is talking about a thousand year kingdom, then everlasting is a thousand years.

    Leviticus 16:34 And this shall be an everlasting statute unto you, to make an atonement for the children of Israel for all their sins once a year. And he did as the LORD commanded Moses.

    Do you believe that there will be yearly sacrifices performed for all eternity to pay for the sins of Israel? I don't. The same thing applies to the words for and ever. You must rightly divide it.

    Exodus 21:6 Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.

    Is this saying that the man will serve his master for all eternity? I doubt you believe that, but you must be consistant if you will insist that these terms always mean forever and ever in endless eternity.
     
  19. bapmom

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    DPT,

    Pre-mills do not all believe that lazy Christians will spend 1000 years in hell....this is the first time Ive ever even heard of that belief.
     
  20. James_Newman

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    1 Corinthians 15:24-27
    24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
    25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
    26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
    27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

    No one ever said anything about the kingdom being destroyed. Christs kingdom lasts 1000 years, then He delivers the kingdom up to God. He must reign until He puts all His enemies under foot, and the last enemy is death.

    Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

    This occurs after the millennium, during which time there are still natural people in natural bodies living and dying.

    Isaiah 65:20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
     

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