Salvation reduced to its most simplest level

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by The Biblicist, Dec 16, 2014.

  1. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,093
    Likes Received:
    205
    The issue of salvation reduced to its most simplest level is:

    1. Man is SPIRITUALLY SEPARATED from God by sin

    2.Salvation is bringing man back into SPIRITUAL UNION with God


    God told Adam that "in the day" he ate he would die. He did not PHYSICALLY die for another 930 years and so PHYSICAL death did not occur "in the day" he sinned. However, what brings on PHYSICAL and ETERNAL death did occur "in the day" he ate and that is SPIRITUAL DEATH. In salvation of man, this is where God BEGINS salvation with SPIRITUAL LIFE, not physical life.

    Spiritual LIFE and Spiritual UNION are one and the same thing.

    God IS life and God IS spirit. To be SPIRITUALLY SEPARATED (death) from God who IS life IS to be SPIRITUALLY dead (separated).

    Spiritual union(life) IS indwelling of the Spirit because the spirit of man only resides within his body and for spiritual life to exist within man the spirit of man must be brought into union with the Spirit of God. That union is the condition of indwelling.

    The baptism in the Spirit is time fixed on Pentecost.

    The church is time fixed because it cannot predate the laying of its foundation (Eph. 2:20) or addition of its first members (1 Cor. 12:28) both of which are New Testament in origin. However, salvation reduced to its most simplest form PRECEDES both the baptism in the Spirit and the church (Acts 10:43; Heb. 4:2).

    If either the baptism in the Spirit is the means or the church is the condition of SPIRITUAL UNION with God through Christ then all mankind previous to Pentecost are SPIRITUALLY DEAD.

    The new birth is the sole spiritual means for Spiritual union (indwelling) and as Jesus told Nicodemus BEFORE Pentecost it is a Biblical truth that every "Master" of Israel ought to have known as it is taught and applied from Genesis to Matthew (circumcision of the heart, give a heart, quickened, etc.).

    The Baptism in the Spirit is always promised only to a PLURAL WATER BAPTIZED BODY of believers (Mt. 3:11; Acts 1:4-5; 2:38) and is never an INDIVIDUAL baptism but is an INSTITUTIONAL baptism found in connection with EVERY newly built "house of God" (Ex. 40:35; 2 Chron. 7:1-3; Acts 2:1-3).

    Roman Catholics and Reformed Roman Catholics (Protestants) all teach a church salvation doctrine BECAUSE they ignorantly make spiritual union which is by regeneration only to be by the baptism in the Spirit in their false concept of the church. This "chuch" gospel salvation doctrine is "another gospel" that is accursed by God.

    Where there is no spiritual union there is only spiritual separation = death. The gospel is maligned by Rome and Reformed Roman Catholic views of the church so as to exclude spiritual union with God who IS life from all Pre-Pentecost human beings, thus assigning them to spiritual death and or to some other kind of salvation OUTSIDE of Christ, but there is no other salvation OUTSIDE of Christ for anyone at anytime anywhere.

    Spiritual union is being quickened and quickening (Eph. 2:1,5) and being quickened is being "created in Christ Jesus UNTO good works" and Hebrews 11 is full of pre-pentecost saints whose lives are full of "good works."

    Most on this forum embrace and preach a CHURCH salvation because you make your church doctrine inseparable from salvation. I preach the gospel of eternal life through repentance and faith in Jesus Christ which has been preached since Genesis 3:15 long before any church came into existence or any means (Baptism in the Spirit) ever existed.

    Salvation at its most simplest level is UNION between the spirit of man and the Spirit of God. Death at its most simplest level is SEPARATION between the spirit of man and the Spirit of God.

    YOUR CHURCH DOCTRINE REPUDIATES THE GOSPEL AT ITS MOST SIMPLEST LEVEL
     
    #1 The Biblicist, Dec 16, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 16, 2014
  2. percho

    percho
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2009
    Messages:
    3,888
    Likes Received:
    37
    xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
     
    #2 percho, Dec 16, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 16, 2014
  3. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,093
    Likes Received:
    205
    I am not denying the provision that obtains salvation!!!! Nor am I dealing with when salvation was purposed. I am simply defining the issue of salvation at its most simplest level. Reducing the problem to its most simplest level (spiritual separation/death) and reducing the solution to its most simplest leve (spiritual union).

    The purpose, means and provision are not in this discussion.
     
    #3 The Biblicist, Dec 16, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 16, 2014
  4. Deacon

    Deacon
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member
    Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2002
    Messages:
    6,968
    Likes Received:
    128
    You sure have a way with making simple things complicated.

    What's this all about? - Are you saying you know something that others don't?

    I'm offended by your accusation against my church and all other churches that the members of this board attend. How many of these church's have you visited?

    Rob
     
  5. OldRegular

    OldRegular
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2004
    Messages:
    22,678
    Likes Received:
    53
    I don't know whether TB is dumping on the Church or not but the Church for which Jesus Christ died includes all the redeemed, those brought into union with Jesus Christ, throughout time! If Jesus Christ died for you you are a part of His Church!
     
  6. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,093
    Likes Received:
    205
    Your position is a contradiction for several reasons:

    1. The foundation of the church (Eph. 2:20), as well as the first added to the church (1 Cor. 12:28) are New Testament in origin but the elect "in Christ" are Old Testament in origin.

    2. There is no salvation OUTSIDE of Christ for anyone at anytime anywhere

    3. Spiritual union with God through Christ is eternal life without which there is no salvation for anyone at anytime.

    4. You are simply teaching the Reformed Roman Catholic view of Roman Catholic Church salvation. To be in your church is to be saved and to be outside your church is to be lost, just like your mamma church in Rome. The only difference is her church is universal VISIBLE while yours is universal INVISIBLE but the very same doctrine of church salvation.
     
  7. OldRegular

    OldRegular
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2004
    Messages:
    22,678
    Likes Received:
    53
    I have found on the BB that all are entitled to be wrong, that includes you!

    Your reasoning is convoluted. The Elect are the Elect, Old Testament or New Testament, Israelite or Gentile, and they are saved only because of the Obedience of Jesus Christ!

    *********************************************

    I repeat my post for your edification.
    Now please identify where I said that there is SALVATION OUTSIDE of Jesus Christ? And if you are saved by Jesus Christ you are part of His Church for which He died whether you believe it or not!

    ****************************

    If one is in union with Jesus Christ they are in union with God the Father and God the Holy Spirit! If one is in union with God then they are Saved!

    **************************************

    That is absolute nonsense. Furthermore it is absolutely FALSE! You are reading your bias into my post; unethical to say the least!

    I don't have a church. The Roman Catholics don't have a church. Jesus Christ has a Church for which He died. All those in the Lamb's Book of Life constitute the Church. The Apostle Paul refers to That Church as the Bride of Jesus Christ. The Apostle John in the Book of Revelation refers to the Church the Bride of Jesus Christ. That Church will be with the Triune God throughout eternity in the New Heavens and New Earth.
     
  8. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,093
    Likes Received:
    205
    You have a funny church. The FOUNDATION of the church was not laid until the first coming of Christ (Eph. 2:20) as the FOUNDATION is made up of first, apostles and then secondly prophets (1 Cor. 12:28).

    Have you ever seen an edifice built before its foundation???? No! The foundation is New Testament in Origin, hence, the church of Christ that is built UPON that foundation is New Testament in origin. But the elect are from Genesis to Revelation. therefore the church does not equal the elect.

    Christ died for his church, but he died for much more than his church.


    Not all are in the saved are in the bride (Rev. 21:24). Look at the time of this text. It is beyond the Great White throne Judgement (Rev. 20). It is beyond the creation of a new heaven and earth (Rev. 21:1-2). Here are "saved" populating the NEW earth AFTER Jerusalem comes down who are not in the bride.

    You are confusing the church with the family of God. The church is part of God's family, just as a bride is part of a family but it is not the entire family. The church has organization structure, such as officers (Act 20:28) and ordinances BUT NO SUCH CHURCH EXISTED PREVIOUS TO CHRIST's first coming, but there are elect before Christ's coming, therefore the church does not equal the family of God.

    Moreover, how does one become a member of your invisible universal church??? The baptism in the Spirit is FIXED in time on Pentecost, but there are elect in Christ BEFORE Pentecost. So what mechanism places one into this invisible monstrosity before Pentecost?????? If you say it is the new birth, then it must be the new birth both before and after Pentecost, so then what is the baptism in the Spirit???? Problems, problems!!!

    The New Testament Church that Jesus built is an ORGANIZATION with OFFICERS and ORDINANCES and DISCIPLINARY administrations but where is that church prior to the ministry of Christ??????? Problems, problems?????

    The bottom line is that your DOCTRINE of the church is false as the church does not equal the elect, as the church has not existence prior to the first coming of Christ. The elect equal the family of God but neither equal the church of God.

    The Brides does not contain all the elect as there are guests at the marriage supper and there are "saved" that populate the nations outside the New Jerusalem in the New Heavens and earth (Rev. 21:24). Not all the saved have the equal rights to the tree of life. Some have rights to the fruit (Rev. 2:7), while the "leaves" are for the nations (Rev. 22:2).
     
    #8 The Biblicist, Dec 16, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 16, 2014
  9. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,093
    Likes Received:
    205
    The church embraced by many on this forum is a universal invisible church and if you don't believe it just wait and you will see them come out of the woodwork defending their universal invisible church salvation doctrine.

    To be in this church is to be saved and to be outside this church is to be lost by their repeated declarations. How does one get into their church? By their view of the baptism in the Spirit. They believe the baptism in the Spirit is what places a person spiritually "in Christ" or in "spiritual union" with Christ. But that is fixed in time on Pentecost isn't it? Hence, everyone prior to Pentecost according to this church salvation view are OUTSIDE of Christ Spriitually.

    The church in the Scriptures has its foundation and first members in the New Testament, but the elect go all the way back to Genesis. Hence, the church does not equal the family of God into which one enters by birth, as one does any kind of family.

    Church does not equal elect.
    Church does not equal the family of God
    Church does not equal the kingdom of God.

    The New Testament church is an ORGANIZATION with officers, ordinances, and discipline.
     
  10. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    13,377
    Likes Received:
    728
    :thumbsup::wavey::thumbsup:
     
  11. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    13,377
    Likes Received:
    728
    The Biblicist

    Hello B....although I agree with 90% of what you post.....we have two major differences so far as I see.....lets look again-



    Agreed:thumbsup:
    [QUOTE]The church is time fixed because it cannot predate the laying of its foundation (Eph. 2:20) or addition of its first members (1 Cor. 12:28) both of which are New Testament in origin. However, salvation reduced to its most simplest form PRECEDES both the baptism in the Spirit and the church (Acts 10:43; Heb. 4:2).[/QUOTE]

    We start to differ here. At first the difference is partial, and yet it is a watershed issue.

    This is just not so...
    Using your terminology...Spirit Baptism is "time fixed"....Pentecost....okay.

    It was a one time event...agreed.....But what happened there?

    When God credentialed Solomans temple with the Shekinah glory...It was an event to indicate where sacred space, ie, the meeting place of God and man could be found{in type, and yet in a literal location, the temple.}

    We no longer have a physical place being credentialed...but the sacred space is the new heart in each believer...living stones built up to be the habitation of God.

    Spirit Baptism has to do with Christ Himself, and us in HIM.

    This one time event...Pentecost....placed all believers from all time IN CHRIST.
    before this event all elect looked forward to it...in a figure....Heb11

    10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God

    13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

    14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.

    15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.

    16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

    I am with O.R. on this in this respect.....without creating artificial divisions as you have suggested...you agree that salvation takes place from Gen 3 ..onward....but you have not suggested any means, or in what way the OT saints come into the door.....Christ Jesus. {Spirit Baptism is that means}

    It takes OT believers, the elect remnant in transition in Acts, and elect gentiles and forms the ONE TRUE CHURCH...that will assemble on the LAST DAY.

    I do NOT HOLD to a universal church now.....local church only.
    This part follows the OT type...assembly of visible saints...what has changed however is it is not in the externals, but Internal that the work of God is primarily accomplished....21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
    22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

    23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

    24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

    I know you have clearly said ,and quite correctly that no salvation happens apart from Jesus... we agree on this. I am not quite sure of your reluctance then or your pushing of a few ideas....but that is why we can clarify what we believe here.

    Yes the one time event is put to the believers account as He is quickened and indwelt by the Spirit of God.

    Wrong.....the whole Body of believers are In Christ.....each member individually is quickened to life......not individual baptisms....ONE BAPTISM.

    the ONE BAPTISM is the means of union with Christ....and it is not water baptism in Romans 6...it is clearly Spirit Baptism...there is no water in romans 6. There is not one drop of water in Romans 6, or you are speaking of baptismal regeneration which I believe you also despise.


    There is one salvation made possible for all saints.We are grafted in...to promises made unto the fathers....ie, Christ Himself

    27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

    28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

    29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.


    It is both union with and identification with.
     
  12. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,093
    Likes Received:
    205
    So, God never dwelt (spiritual union) in anyone prior to Pentecost, and therefore all before Pentecost are spiritual separated (dead)?? That is exactly what you are teaching and it is false.

    The materials for the PUBLIC HOUSE OF WORSHIP is different than before. You are correct about that. But it is STILL the PUBLIC HOUSE OF WORSHIP that is the object of the baptism. This PUBLIC HOUSE of worship is an ORGANIZATION, and INSTITUTION (officers, ordinances, rules of discipline, members can be excluded) but WHERE IS THIS ORGANIZATION before Pentecost????? Can't be found! But where are the elect before Pentecost (Heb. 11) from Genesis to Matthew CAN BE FOUND in SPIRITUAL UNION with God through Christ.


    Not according to Scripture! The Holy Spirit is the element whereas Christ is the baptizer in the baptism in the Spirit "HE shall baptize you IN the Spirit"

    Hebrews 11 says no such thing. Hebrews 11:40 explicitly states that it is the STATE OF PERFECTION - the GLORIFIED state they looked forward to and we with them STILL ARE WAITING for it:


    39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
    40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.


    This promise of the glorified state where the New Jerusalem has come down from heaven is the explicit promise and hope they were looking for and it is spelled out in clear English in Hebrews 11:13-17

    These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
    14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
    15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
    16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.


    This has NOTHING to do with spiritual union or the baptism in the Spirit but with what we are all still waiting for - GLORIFICATION in the new heavens and earth.


    No edifice can be built BEFORE its foundation is laid (Eph. 2:20). No edifice can be built without materials to build it (1 Cor. 12:28). The NT Church is an ORGANIZATION, as the NT church has officers, ordinances and disciplinary order. NO SUCH CHURCH PRECEDES THE coming of Christ.


    You are simply speaking without any scriptural basis whatsoever! Again the NT church is an ORGANIZATION consisting of officers, ordinances, disciplinary order, membership that has NO EXISTENCE prior to the first coming of Christ.

    Prior to Acts 10 it was strictly a JEWISH organization. The baptism in the Spirit had to be repeated by God in order for the JEWS to receive them into the ORGANIZATION as members through WATER baptism. The question was who will deny WATER BAPTISM from those God has accredited to be part of his NEW HOUSE OF GOD, the INSTIUTION, the ORGANIZATION.

    What???? So, by your church theory the Old Testament saints are still not in your big church. Still OUTSIDE of what you define as spiritual union with Christ (the church)??????? Yes you do believe in a universal invisible church right now or else the Old Testament saints are STILL LOST, STILL OUTSIDE OF SPIRITUAL UNION and yet in heaven and that is absurd!



    Jesus is directly referring to the ongoing debate between the Samaritans and the Jews about public worship being GEOGRAPHICALLY FIXED either at Jerusalem in the temple or in Samaria. The Samaritans had their own version of the scriptures, their own temple, their own priest begun by Jeroboam back in 2 Chron. 13.

    The NT CHURCH as an institution consist of concrete churches plural that can be placed ANYWHERE ON EARTH just as we see in the book of Acts and the epistles.



    So you still believe all before Pentecost existed their entire life in SPIRITUAL SEPARATON(death) and since you don't believe your BIG CHURCH even now exists but only will exist yet in the future therefore the Old Testament saints are STILL in spiritual separation (spiritually dead) and OUTSIDE of Christ?????



    Your BIG church does not yet exist but it exists???? Make up your mind! Either it does or it does not. If the WHOLE BODY is your CHURCH and these believers EXIST somewhere then so does YOUR KIND OF CHURCH exist now and you do believe in a universal invisible church RIGHT NOW!

    Your church salvation contradicts the scriptures. The Church of the New Testament is an INSTITUTIONAL ORGANIZATION which has OFFICERS, ORDINANCE, disciplinary standards, membership, STRUCTURE! However, your IMAGINARY church has no such OFFICERS, no such ORDINANCES, not such DISCIPLINARY standards for membership, and no such MEMBERSHIP!

    is water baptism as water baptism is the ONLY baptism promised until Jesus returns (Mt. 28:19-20) and the baptism in the Spirit was COMPLETED in Acts 2, and Acts 10.

    For your theory to be true this baptism in the Spirit doctrine would be repeated each time someone is saved. However, thousands were saved between Acts 2 and Acts 10 and yet the nearest reference point for what happened in Acts 10 was Acts 2 according to Peter "AT the beginning".

    Your whole doctrine is pure manipulation of God's Word to fit a church salvation doctrine.







    He did not say this baptism put one "IN" Jesus Christ but "PUT ON" Jesus as one does in Public water baptism.

    The Old Covenant institional house of God had a "wall" dividing Gentiles from Jews in public worship. The New House of God, the institutional organizational structured Congregation with OFFICERS, ORDINANCES, disicplinary standards for membership has no such "middle wall" in PUBLIC WORSHIP.





    So again, you are teaching your church salvation doctrine excluding all before the baptism in the Spirit from spiritual union with God thus spiritually dead (separated) from God but still acceptable to God?????

    YOu are still teaching your Mother's doctrine - Church salvation as by your own mouth there is no spiritual union with God outside of your universal church. The Reformed Roman Catholic church doctrine of salvation is still church salvation as no one outside your church is saved but only those inside your church.
     
    #12 The Biblicist, Dec 17, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 17, 2014
  13. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,093
    Likes Received:
    205
    The baptism in the Spirit happened ON EARTH not in heaven as Jesus says they are not to depart Jerusalem but wait for that promise.

    If the baptism in the Spirit was what you interpret it is, extending to all the Old Testament saints IN HEAVEN then why would anyone need to wait in specific geographical location ON EARTH! Your theory does not fit Scripture.

    However, if the baptism in the Spirit was the public accreditation of a NEW KIND of PUBLIC INSTITUTIONAL HOUSE OF GOD consisting only of WATER BAPTIZED believers that actually geographically assemble, congregate, with officers, ordinances, discplinary standards for membership then obviously they must be assembled in some geographically location ON EARTH to be baptized in the Spirit.

    Every promise of the baptism in the Spirit is for WATER BAPTIZED BELIEVERS only (Mt. 3:11, Acts 1:4-5; 2:38; 10:47

    "I BAPTIZE YOU WITH WATER...but he shall baptize YOU" The very same "YOU"

    Here is the question concerning the baptism in the Spirit:

    Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
     
  14. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,093
    Likes Received:
    205
    The universal invisible church theory and their theory of the baptism in the Spirit repudiates the very essentials of salvation at its most simplest l.evel. It is a church salvation theory, one must be in this church to be saved and to be outside of it is to be lost.

    However, the NT Church Jesus is an ORGANIZATIONAL INSTITUTION with officers, ordinances, disciplinary standards for membership which can expel members that had no prior existence from its foundation upward before the first coming of Christ.

    But in direct contrast, the elect of God can be found IN SPIRITUAL UNION with God through faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ with sins remitted, righteousness imputed DURING THEIR OWN LIFETIME before the first coming of Christ (Jn. 3:1-10; Acts 10:43; Rom. 4:1-12).

    The Baptism in the Spirit has NOTHING to do with salvation or spiritual union with God, but is for WATER BAPTIZED BELIEVERS built, constructed, assembled as a new kind of PUBLIC HOUSE OF WORSHIP that can be found over all the world in the book of Acts and the epistles.

    The universal invisible church theory and its baptism in the Spirit theory are nothing more than Mother Rome's church salvation doctrine clad in Protestantism (Reformed Roman Catholic churches).

    Both Luther and Augustine invented their big universal churches on a misinterpretation of Matthew 13:31 where they both misinterpreted the realm of the professing kingdom in this world to be the church. But Jesus said the field was "the world" not the church or kingdom ("38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;).

    The big church theories are due to confusing the church which is an institutional organization with the Kingdom and family of God. The elect constitute the family of God both in heaven and earth (Eph. 3:15). The professing kingdom in "the world" (field) contain both "tares" and the "true seed" and it is the church that is given the "keys of the Kingdom" and therefore cannot be the kingdom, any more the one who is given the keys of a car can be the car. the church is the institutional administrator of the keys within the professing kingdom of God.
     
    #14 The Biblicist, Dec 17, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 17, 2014
  15. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,093
    Likes Received:
    205
    The Big Church people fail to distinguish corporate indwelling as an institutional organization (1 Cor. 3:16) with individual indwelling (1 Cor. 6:19).

    It is the institutional metaphorical body that was the plural "you" promised indwelling on Pentecost (Mt. 3:11; Jn. 7; Acts 1:4-5) NOT THE INDIVIDUAL literal body (Jn. 3:1-11).

    They cannot see the difference even when it is spelled out clearly by these two texts simply because their church salvation doctrine won't fit this distinction.

    There was no NEW SALVATION introduced on Pentecost, no NEW GOSPEL, but only a NEW INSTITUTIONAL HOUSE OF GOD that was not made of animal skins, literal stone which became the New Covenant administrator (of its ordinances, disciplinary standards, membership, etc.) on earth as the Old Covenant house of God where God indwelt was the administrator of the Old Covenant on earth (Heb. 9:1).
     
  16. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,093
    Likes Received:
    205
    What happened there was the public accreditation of a NEW KIND of public institutional house of worship - the NT Church as an INSTITUTIONAL ORGANIZATION with officers, ordinances, disciplinary standards for membership that can remove members (something your kind of church cannot do).

    It could not be something effecting anyone in heaven as those upon whom it occurred are commanded not to leave a certain geographical location ON EARTH. If your view was correct, that it was being administered to saints in heaven and on earth, then no geographical restriction on earth would be necessary as there were more than 500 "brethren" who witnessed the resurrection of Christ and only 120 are meeting in Jerusalem, and so you cannot possibly claim that ALL BELEIVERS on earth were located in Jerusalem. If the baptism is what you claim no restricted geographical location would be necesssary.

    However, if my view is correct, then a restricted geographical location (Acts 1:4-5) is absolutely necessary.

    Your view includes unbaptized and baptized beleivers but the prophetic promises are only directly to WATER BAPTIZED believers (Mt. 3:11) as the very same plural "you" baptized in water is the very same "you" the promise is made to be baptized in the Spirit (Acts 1:4-5). Water baptism is always connected with this view (Acts 2:38; 10:46).

    Your view demands that no SPIRITUAL alteration or spiritual union with God occurred throughout the life of all prePentecost believers but they remained in spiritual separation from God (oxymoronic), but my view does not connect the church with salvation or the baptism in the Spirit with salvation but with an institutional organized public "house of God" for SERVICE and WORSHIP.

    Your view fails to distinguish between a corporate INSTITUTIONAL "you" that is indwelt by the Spirit (1 Cor. 3:16) which was built by men under the leadership of the Spirit at Corinth, versus the INDIVIDUAL "you" that is indwelt by the Spirit (1 Cor. 6:19). Here is the fundemental problem with your view of the church and the baptism in the Spirit. You confuse the INDIVDUAL indwelling, regeneration, spiritual union with the INSTITUTIONAL indwelling, accreditation and administration.

    You do believe in CHURCH SALVATION! The FACT is to be outside your kind of church is to be LOST. Hence, one MUST be in your kind of church to be saved - that is CHURCH SALVATION as membership in your kind of church is a MUST to be in a STATE OF SALVATION.

    Moreover, your big church must exist NOW or else there is no salvation for prePentecost Saints or present saints because your kind of church IS THE STATE OF SALVATION. Therefore to say it does not yet exist is simply a falsehood, as it MUST NOW EXIST or the STATE OF SALVATION does not exist. Thus you hold to a doctrine of CHURCH SALVATION whether you deny it or not.

    This CHURCH STATE OF SALVATION is "another gospel" and it repudiates the true Biblical doctrine of salvation at the most fundemental level of salvation and that is SPIRITUAL UNION with God is absolutely essential IN ORDER not to be SPIRITUALLY SEPARATED and thus SPIRITUALLY DEAD their entire lives on earth. Your church salvation condemns to spiritual death all before Pentecost and no act on Pentecost can reverse THEIR LIVES ON EARTH that existed in SPIRITUAL DEATH from their physical birth to their physical death. NOTHING can reverse that reality if they were not in spiritual union with God from their physical birth to their physical death - NOTHING!

    You are saying that fallen man can live their whole life in SPIRITUAL SEPARATION (spiritual death) and yet exercise the fruit of the Spirit (faith, love, etc.) all of which are manifest in the lives of the Pre-Pentecost saints. You are claiming that the lost man before Pentecost can do what you claim the lost man after Pentecost cannot do. You are claiming there are three different kinds of human beings instead of two (lost or saved, unregenerated or regenerated) those "in the flesh" and those "in the Spirit" when Paul says there are only two when it comes to the FALLEN NATURE (Rom. 8:7-9).

    Your view demands that PRIOR TO PENTECOST the FALLEN NATURE can come to Christ by faith (Acts 10:43) and find justificaiton and remission of sins by faith (Rom. 4:5-11) WITHOUT THE SPIRIT OF GOD changing anything within them fundemental to their fallen nature. Your view contradicts your whole argument on this forum against Arminianism.
     
    #16 The Biblicist, Dec 17, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 17, 2014
  17. OldRegular

    OldRegular
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2004
    Messages:
    22,678
    Likes Received:
    53
    The chief cornerstone is Jesus Christ "slain from the foundation of the world" {Revelation 13:8}

    ************************

    He died for the elect and the elect only, and for the Church.

    *************************


    You are attempting to apply a strict chronology and literalism to a Book that is not intended to be interpreted that way. The New Jerusalem is the Church, the bride, metaphorically described in Revelation 21:10ff!

    ****************************************

    It is you who are confused! The 1689 Baptist Confession says you are:

    But of course the 1689 Confession and the Bible preceded pre-trib-dispensationalism!

    And the Southern Baptist Faith and Message of 2000AD says you are:

    ***************************************


    I assume you know since you titled this thread: "Salvation reduced to its most simplest level".

    In the OP you say:
    Yet in your post #14 you say:

    You are confused! Indwelling of the Holy Spirit is Baptism in the Spirit unless you are Pentecostal.

    John 1:33. And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

    Now John the Baptist was not speaking of Baptizing a building or an organization but Baptizing an individual.

    ****************************

    The Local church has officers and ordinances. The Temple or synagogue had officers and ordinances. I am talking about the Church, the totality of the elect, the redeemed.

    ***********************

    You are the one spewing page after page of false doctrine and have the gall to call it "Salvation reduced to its most simplest level".

    ****************************

    That is absolutely laughable organic fertilizer, and you call yourself "The Biblicist"! :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:
     
  18. percho

    percho
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2009
    Messages:
    3,888
    Likes Received:
    37

    I am asking not teaching.

    Concerning that in red. From Adam to the present for that in red to be fulfilled, doesn't this have to take place, whether one is living or dead physically?

    But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Romans 8:11

    Would not Jesus being raised from the dead, as the head of the corner and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit to shed froth, the one time event, not be the event that put all OT and NT in the church that God is building?

    That would mean that those, say of the OT, even though having succumbed to the gates of Hades, those gates would not prevail against them when that in red is fulfilled, relative to Heb 11:40?

    I hope that is clear enough to understand what I am thinking.
     
  19. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    13,377
    Likes Received:
    728
    The Biblicist


    Hello B,

    I will not defend what you ascribe to me, when I have not said or taught such things. I will answer at the end of the work day in detail.

    let's do this....you present your position ,let me say what I actually believe, not these false ideas that you are trying to pin on me, OKAY?

    Most of you response is from your mind and not understanding what I am offering. I am not going to defend that which the product of your own mind.

    I think this is what O.R> was saying also. It will take me some time to show what you are doing and why your conclusions are wrong...I will do that.

    Now between now and then......let me ask by way of clarification....

    you are not or have not been in the CoC?
    your frequent appeal to acts 2;38, acts 10 remind me of those people.

    Do you believe a person must be water baptized to be saved?

    On the Last Day.......do you believe there will be only ONE People of God?:wavey:
     
  20. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,093
    Likes Received:
    205
    No, and No!

    There have been, now is, and shall forever be just TWO different kinds of people ever existing on earth and that is those "in the flesh" and those "in the Sprit" NO THIRD OPTION!

    These same TWO categories are:

    1. Lost versus saved
    2. Unregenerate versus regenerate
    3. Children of Satan versus Children of God
    4. Unredeemed versus redeemed
    5. Unforgiven versus forgiven
    6. Unjustified versus justified
    7. Unrighteous versus righteous
    8. Thus "in the flesh" = without indwelling versus "in the Spirit" = indwelt

    However, you have a THIRD OPTION the Bible knows nothing about. You have a type of fallen Adam prior to Pentecost who is "in the flesh" and yet came come to Christ by faith (Acts 10:43; Rom. 4) and live by faith (Heb. 11) without what YOU DEFINE as spiritual union/regeneration or the baptism in the Spirit (not by how I define it).

    In heaven there is but ONE PEOPLE who share the same STATE OF SALVATION but MANY DIFFERENT CLASSIFICATIONS OF THOSE ONE PEOPLE who do not share the same POSITION in heaven due to how they lived on earth. The "bride" is a METAPHORICAL classification due to works (Rev. 19:6-8; 2 Cor. 11:2-4) rather than a STATE of salvation yet to be presented to Christ AFTER the judgement.

    The metaphor of a completed marriage (spiritual union) is used in Romans 7:1-6 as it already is producing metaphorical children ("fruits") of that marriage. However, the metaphor of the "chaste virgin" or "bride" YET TO BE PRESENTED is based upon more than a past spiritual union but "FAITHFULNESS" to "the faith once delivered" on earth.
     
    #20 The Biblicist, Dec 17, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 17, 2014

Share This Page

Loading...