Salvations Probationary State

Why is it so difficult for some people to grasp the idea of a free gift. Obedience is not required to receive the gift. If obedience is required then it's not a gift, but a wage. If you have to do something in order to get something that is not grace, but wages.

That really is not that difficult to see. Then I guess for some it is.

 

Thine is the Kingdom, and the Power, and the Glory! God has a glory, but a Christian can also have glory. What is the glory for a child of God? We have the hope of glory. Do we hope that we are saved? You should know that you are saved! The Bible flat-out states in no uncertain terms that you can know that you are saved and that it's irrevocable in Acts 16:31. But, the hope of glory has to do with the hope of ruling and reigning in the coming Kingdom. It’s the hope of ruling in the millennial age! We need to be seeking first the Kingdom of God, and His righteousness!

Vol. 4: Analytical lexicon of the Greek New Testament, from Baker's Greek New Testament library, by Friberg, Friberg, and Miller, Louw and Nida’s Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament : Based on semantic domains (Vol. 1, Page 295), from the United Bible societies, Liddell and Scott’s Greek-English Lexicon, Moulton’s Analytical Greek Lexicon, The Greek and English Lexicon to the New Testament by Greene, and the Bauer, Danker, Arndt, and Gingrich’s A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (also known as the BDAG for short), all of which are considered standards in the field of Greek Lexicons, define the verb form as “to look forward to something, with implication of confidence about something coming to pass, to hope, or to hope for; to look forward to something in view of the measures one takes to ensure fulfillment; expect”. The noun form is defined as, “the looking forward to something with some reason for confidence respecting fulfillment, hope, expectation, that which is the basis for hoping, foundation of hope, that for which one hopes, something hoped for”. (These definitions are actually from the BDAG, which is the best Greek lexicon but is quite expensive, but all the definitions are along these lines; I have the full list quoted above, if you want them later.)

Hope means to look forward with confidence to that which is good and beneficial; to hope, to hope for, hope. Some examples can be found in Luke 24:21, which says, “and we had hoped that he would be the one who was going to redeem Israel”; 1 Timothy 4:10, which says, “because we have placed our hope in the living God”; Acts 23:6 in which Paul says, “I am on trial (here) because I hope that the dead will rise to life”; Romans 15:4: “in order that through patience and encouragement given by the Scriptures we might have hope.”

Hope means to expect, with the implication of some benefit; to expect, to hope. In Luke 6:34-35, we find "And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same. And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again." An example using “that which is hoped for” can be found in Romans 8:24, which says, “when what is hoped for is seen, there is no longer any need to hope”. The word can be used to reference that which constitutes the cause or reason for hoping; the basis for hope, the reason for hope. 1 Thessalonians 2:19 says, “for who is the basis for our hope or joy?” This expression in 1 Thessalonians 2.19 may be rendered as, “for who is the one who causes us to hope and to have joy [to be happy]?”

Something that you hope for is by no means certain, but we are told explicitly that our salvation is certain, no matter what, if we believe on the Lord Jesus. Our hope is that of receiving rewards and honor and glory and praise on that great and dreadful day, which is by no means certain. That's what we are working for, not our salvation, and That's what our hope is.

If you only hope you're saved, based on whether you've been faithful enough, you're depending upon yourself for your salvation. If you have to overcome and endure to the end to be saved, then his work on the cross was not enough; he needs a little help.

We can know we are saved, but we can only hope for glory.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobRyan
Just need to step away from your man-made tradition long enough to show that "denied by Christ" and "removed from the vine of Christ withered dead and tossed into the fire" is the description in the Gospel of "the saved".

In fact "you have done no such thing".

you can not link to it.

you can not even dream it up - because there is no text stating that these terms are the Gospel view of "salvation".

Having utterly failed to find support in the Bible for your wild claims you simply pronounce victory over yourself with not link, no text at all saying that "REMOVED from the vine of Christ, withered, dead and cast into the fire" is the "SAVED STATE" promised in the Gospel!!

How sad that at each point when called upon to sustain your views sola scriptura you slink away.

 

A bit about the grapevine, first. Those who lived at the time knew farming and ranching and understood the parables. We who are far away from the land, for the most part, buying our grapes in grocery stores, have misunderstood a lot of the things said by Christ.

A grape vine bears fruit. That is the nature of the thing. A grafted branch, especially when grafted by God Himself!, will bear fruit. But grape vines are funny things. It is only the first shoots in the spring which bear the best fruit. But each branch then shoots out quite a number of very vigerous branches itself which do not bear fruit but simply extend the vine. These branches must be cut off for the vine to bear good fruit, for they sap enormous strength from the vine.

Christ's parable about the branches being cut off and thrown into the fire (if you do not destroy them and simply let them lie on the ground, they will root! I found this out, to my distress, one year after I trimmed my vines) is a promise of care, not a threat of losing salvation. The grafted branches will all bear fruit themselves. That is what grape vines DO. But, like a grafted or any natural branch, we all have a tendency to go shooting off into areas of our lives we think are beneficial or good and spend energy where the Lord KNOWS we will not bear fruit. And so those areas of our lives are faithfully eliminated by Him. We may be heartbroken and disappointed, but He knows what He is doing. The parable of the grape vines was never an indication of losing salvation. It was, and is, a promise of His care for our lives in Him.

This runs exactly along the lines of Phil. 1:6 which is the promise that He who began a good work in us will be faithful to see it through to completion. This is exactly along the lines of Romans 8:28-30, in which we are told that those who love the Lord are predestined to be conformed to His image. This is not Calvinist predestination of who will or will not be a believer. This is Biblical predestination about what the future of believers has been determined to be.

Once you are born again in the Spirit, you are indwelt by the Spirit. He takes charge of your life, disciplining where necessary (Hebrews 12), but always totally faithful to transform the person, step by step, into the image of Christ.

We work to hear "Well done, good and faithful servant." We do not work to earn or keep our salvation. That is a gift which we have the freedom to accept or reject. But, like jumping off a cliff, one cannot retract and 'fly' back up to the top of that cliff after one jumps. In the same way, once one is born again, it's a done deal.

Sure there are people who claim to be His, who are not. The Bible warns about them start to finish. But those who ARE His are indwelt by the Holy Spirit who is indeed faithful to finish the good work He began in each of us.

We can be less troublesome or more troublesome to Him, but we are His. Some of us will hear "Well done" and others will not. Some will have some kind of rewards which can be earned or lost through one's life, and some will not. But no one who is born again in Him is going to be unborn in Him. He hasn't lost one, and even those who wander He will hunt down and bring back, like the Good Shepherd He is.

 

Psalm 1 tells us there is a judgement at which the evil will not stand. Interestingly, Jesus says in Matthew 5 that there are those who even teach wrongly who will be in heaven but will be the 'least'. I do think we can see there are leaders, certainly, who have deceived others in the name of Christ who will hear "I never knew you."

But the Bible has some interesting points about deception which have me, at the least, curious. Notice that Eve was the first to disobey, but sin nature did not come through her to the human race, but through Adam, who had received the command directly from God and who knew better.

To go a little deeper, WHY did Eve disobey? If you look at Ezekiel 28, you will see God is talking through Ezekiel to the King of Tyre. Yet there is the claim that "you were in Eden", which we know the King of Tyre definitely was NOT! So is God speaking to Satan through both Ezekiel, who is His representative and then through the king, who is Satan's representative? If so, then we find that Satan was originally the guardian cherub of Eden. And if that is true, then we have the answer to Eve's disobedience to God. She trusted the guardian cherub, and he deceived her. He is called by Jesus the 'father of lies.'

I may be quite wrong here (my kids will be happy to tell you it is not the first time...LOL), but when we put these all together, it appears that those who are honestly deceived are not held accountable in the way that the deceivers are. For this reason, I think we may be astounded that there will be followers of even the LDS church in heaven, who honestly believed they were worshiping the God of the Bible and the Jesus of the Bible. I do think there are those who have been honestly deceived by various false leaders and cults who nevertheless have thought they were involved with the truth. God knows the heart, and I don't dare say more than that.

Conversely, there are clearly going to be leaders and teachers who have taken the name of Christ in vain, and are not Christians at all, and who know better. Even the demons, James tells us, intellectually know, or 'believe' that God is real. But that sort of belief is a whole lot different from "Believe and be saved" which, when used in the context of the time, means to drop everything and follow in trust.

I do think there are those who claim to be Christians who will not find themselves 'standing in the judgment' of Psalm 1, or the 'rewards ceremony', if you will, for believers. But these are not honestly deceived people. They will have been confronted by the truth time and time again by various means God uses and, as in Romans 1, they will have suppressed that truth over and over again, preferring themselves or something else to the truth of Christ. They will have known better. They will have preferred the lie consistently through their lives, despite church attendance, possibly leadership, and certainly despite their claims of Christianity.

On the other hand, if we think about those who are honestly deceived by others but who think they are disciples of the Jesus of the Bible, God knows their hearts.

And I think I need to leave it at that. I would love to be surprised in heaven...

No, one last note, looking at your post. 1 John spends a good deal of time talking about how we can know we are saved. The letter is not long. Read it again, slowly and quietly, and see if that does not answer your own personal question better than any human can.

 

Paradox is of the essence of truth. Salvation is not arithmatic; it is not 2x2=4. Yet it is perfectly true and honest, like Jesus says here.

We 'must' receive it, yet who enables us to receive? Who gives us palate for mercy, and the desire after forgivemness - or reform? We are surely not born with it, but gifted - through the Holy Spirit witnessing of Jesus Christ - with it.

 

Amen! Amen! Amen!

Now, if only others could see that.

In response to "What must I do to be saved?", the answer given was simple:

"Believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved."

It does not say, "Believe on the Lord Jesus and do some good works and continue in good works to prove that you're saved and endure to the end and you may or may not be saved."

If only people could let go and quit worrying about whether they may or may not be saved and quit worrying about judging the fruit of others and whether they're truly saved and get busy serving God...

 

Helen,

That's one thing that I'm happy about being raised on a farm. I can relate to many of the agricultural statments made in Scriptures. My family also raised grapes, but they actually cultivated wild grapes. (Are they still wild then? I don't know.) As such, I can see the beautiful picture painted in John 15 in which he lifts up the grape vine. Grapes won't bear fruit when they're down on the ground; you have to support them with a trellis of some sort. In the same way, he lifts up the vine so that the branches may bear fruit.

Many people think that the fruit of a Christian is another Christian. But, as you pointed out, we are branches and what profit is it for a vine to simply grow more branches?

 

That's interesting. I didn't know they wouldn't bear grapes unless supported. I just have always had them along fence lines because it was easy food and a fence covering at the same time! Thanks for the extra information. It hold spiritually as well, and that's neat.

 

At least the ones we dealt with. In the wild, they climb trees or bushes, depending upon variety. We used our old clothes line for one vine. It grew from one end to the other and bore fruit for many years until my grandmother died and the house was sold.

From that one vine, she would pick about 10 gallons of grapes that she would eat and give away, and about 30 gallons that she would turn into jelly.

I was just talking to my wife yesterday that if we move from Alaska, we're getting more grape vines.

 

Your last statement is an oxymoron. A gift can not be associated with a cost or it's not a gift. The Bible says eternal salvation a free gift (Romans 5), so there is NO cost associated with it. Your statement is in direct violation of Scripture in a number of different areas. The only thing that is required is death and shed blood and that has been done on your behalf. Believe and you will be saved.

 

Jim1999, I share your dismay. (post #13)

 

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power F2 to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
He who has the power gets the credit!:thumbs:

 

Here is what the Bible says - (Good texts to be ignored if you take a certain POV)

 

Adam was born sinless, perfect, holy and the child of God. The NT calls him the son of God. Given this family relationship as a gift - Adam could not simply "fall back up a cliff" and be "uncreated" or unmake himself in the family of God.

But he could fall and be condemned.

In the same way in Matt 18 forgiveness is given to the servant that owes much - as a free gift. The servant could not "unmake himself" and yet - he did fall and have "forgiveness revoked"

 

And as always everyone is supposed to believe your definitions and interpretations of these verses because BobRyan says so. Sorry, but not going to happen.
Let me just take the first one that you mentioned and again show that you are mishandling Scripture. There will not be need to do it with your further cherry picking.

Let's look at the CONTEXT of this passage to see what it is really talking about. Okay first thing right off the bat is that we can see works are involved, because enduring until the end has to do with man's continuing, which is man's works.

So right off the bat we know this is not in the context of eternal salvation, becuase if it was the Bible would contradict itself in at least three places (Ephesians 2:8-9, Acts 16:30-31 and Romans 4-5).

Your point on this verse is not a point at all and you've only shown that you have taken this Scripture out of context (which is what you do with all the Scripture you use to try and prove your false teaching of conditional secruity).

It is actually verse 7 that gives us the context of this passage, and it says "And as you go, preach, saying, `The kingdom of heaven is at hand.'

Again all references to the kingdom of heaven in Matthew should actually read the kingdom of the heavens.

And Christ told them to go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel in verse six. There is not one place in Scripture that shows sheep in an association with eternally unsaved.

To go to a lost sheep with a message they already have would be pointless. Lost sheep are still sheep, just not on the right path.