Samuel Rutherford and the sinner's warrant to call on Christ

Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by convicted1, Nov 17, 2013.

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  1. convicted1

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    Samuel Rutherford and the sinner's warrant to call on Christ



    I found a site where Samuel Rutherford addressed this very topic. The quote you're using, Brother Steve, is a paraphrase by Ebenezer Erskine, and not by Rutherford himself. Rutherford stated on page 442 that "Christ gave Himself for so many, as many as we are to pray for, but we are to pray for all without exception". He further states this; "We are to think God willeth so many to be saved, and His Son to give Himself a ransom for so many, as we are warranted to pray for, that they may be saved, but we are not warranted to pray for all, and everyone that may be saved, but only for the elect. Ergo, God will only have them to be saved, and His Son to give Himself a ransom for them only". Pg 442.

    books.google.com/books?id=hE8rAAAAYAAJ&dq=%22Reprobate%22%20elect%20warrant%20%22%20rutherford&pg=PA510#v=onepage&q&f=false
     
  2. convicted1

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    I was reading "On Calvinism" by Spurgeon and I think he touched on something that could go along with what you're attempting to address. There is nothing that hinders the non-elect from going to church, because they have a way to get there. There is nothing that stops the non-elect from praying to God. There is nothing stopping them from doing the physical aspects of life. However, seeing that they, as we once were, are a completely fallen human, without the spiritual ability to come on their own accord. That's where the difference(s) lay. Seeing that the non-elect were not chosen before the foundation of the world, and their names were not recorded in the Lamb's Book of Life from before the foundation of the world, they will have no faculties to come to Him, nor any desire to do so, seing that they are fallen and no desire to come from their ruined state.
     
  3. Benjamin

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    Poor faculty-less unlucky non-predestined non-elect with no hope. :tear:

    I be sure to try not to pray for them to be saved. :tear:

    :rolleyes:
     
  4. convicted1

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    Brother Benjamin,

    God has chosen to save some and leave others in their lost state. It's not us who did this but God Almighty. He set this up in a way that pleases Him, and not man.

    Rev. 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

    Those whose names are recorded in the Lamb's Book of Life are those given to the Lamb to redeem, and their names were already written therein. Look, when God called out to us, it was not to write our names in it, but because our names were already there. He ordained everything needed to redeem us, His elect, His church, His bride, His New Jerusalem.....
     
    #4 convicted1, Nov 17, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 17, 2013
  5. Earth Wind and Fire

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    And you don't seethat as unfair Willis?!?
     
  6. convicted1

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    Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. He has a remnant, the election according to grace, that no man can number. If you can number the stars, you can number the elect. I see it like this, Brother Steve. He could have, and should have, tossed me head first into hell, but He had mercy and grace upon me, a self-serving wretch. When we try to think how God operates, our heads will start spinning.
     
  7. convicted1

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    Everybody talks about God and His justice. Justice demands only one thing, hell. God has chosen to bestow grace to whomsoever He will.
     
  8. Rippon

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    All the above is so true.Many folks,even many Christians do not look at it from God's perspective as laid out in the Scripture. They look horizontally and want God to anwer to them --bring God to the dock as C.S.Lewis put it. And that is so very unbiblical.
     
  9. Rippon

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    Yeah,I don't want His very fair justice --but His mercy. The Lord does whatever He wants to do in Heaven and on Earth. And everything He does is perfectly righteous. No one has the right to question Him -- only themselves.
     
  10. Earth Wind and Fire

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    Does a young child deserve hell....would an infant? What are their crimes against God? And he made us! Could he not have....
     
  11. Reformed

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    That is why the Particular Baptists of the 17th Century used the term "elect infants". Those elected unto eternal life are not elected based on how old they are when they die, but according the sovereign decree of God. It was the contention of these men that God used unordinary means to save these infants dying in infancy. Still through Christ, but not through ordinary means (see 1689 LBC 10.3).

    Spurgeon writes about covenant families and how God works through these families to build His kingdom. I have to track down the article, but it is interesting reading.
     
  12. Reformed

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    Good morning, Willis.

    It is easy for some to misunderstand what Rutherford wrote as it is for many Reformers, Puritans, and post-Puritans. We are not prohibited from praying for someone's salvation. We do not know who is elect. Our prayers are answered positively in the salvation of the elect, although our prayers do not alter God's sovereign decree.
     
  13. Rippon

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    You have to rest in the fact that everything God does is perfectly right. He is not a mortal and you should not try to bring him down to your level and your finite notions of what is fair or unfair.

    There is one God and you have to deal with Him and believe that He is way beyond our comprehension --but He does reveal Himself in His Word.You can try to find the kindest individual on the earth but that person would be considered cruel and utterly sinful by God's standards.

    Instead of asking questions that should not be asked :"What if... ?Couldn't He have...?"I don't understand why God would ....?" You need to show your confidence in the Lord and His perfections.Doubting Him is certainly not the way to go.
     
  14. Winman

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    I think you have misinterpreted this verse Willis. Never do the scriptures ever show a person being added to the book of life, but their name being blotted out;

    Psa 69:28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.

    Note how being blotted out is also called "and not be written". Now, if you looked at the phrase "and not be written" all by itself, it would give the impression that that name was never written, wouldn't it?

    And that is how Rev 17:8 is written. It is not saying these persons were never written in the book of life, it is simply stating the fact that they are not in the book of life pertaining to this FUTURE event.

    It is more likely that the phrase "from the foundation of the world" modifies "the book of life" and not "whose names were not written".

    If not, then who does God blot out of the book of life?

    Exo 32:33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

    How can God blot out someone who was never in the book of life? Is this teaching a person can be saved and then lost forever?

    That is the logical conclusion if lost folks are NEVER written in the book of life.

    No, what is more likely is that everyone's name was originally in the book of life, but those who reject God, their names will be blotted out.

    Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

    Again, who is Jesus going to blot out of the book of life here? If the non-elect are never written in the book of life as you believe, then elect persons are going to have their names blotted out.

    That is the only two options you have.
     
  15. Winman

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    What about God and his mercy? What does God's mercy compel him to do?

    Psa 136:1 O give thanks unto the LORD; for he is good: for his mercy endureth for ever.
    2 O give thanks unto the God of gods: for his mercy endureth for ever.
    3 O give thanks to the Lord of lords: for his mercy endureth for ever.
    4 To him who alone doeth great wonders: for his mercy endureth for ever.
    5 To him that by wisdom made the heavens: for his mercy endureth for ever.
    6 To him that stretched out the earth above the waters: for his mercy endureth for ever.
    7 To him that made great lights: for his mercy endureth for ever:
    8 The sun to rule by day: for his mercy endureth for ever:
    9 The moon and stars to rule by night: for his mercy endureth for ever.
    10 To him that smote Egypt in their firstborn: for his mercy endureth for ever:
    11 And brought out Israel from among them: for his mercy endureth for ever:
    12 With a strong hand, and with a stretched out arm: for his mercy endureth for ever.
    13 To him which divided the Red sea into parts: for his mercy endureth for ever:
    14 And made Israel to pass through the midst of it: for his mercy endureth for ever:
    15 But overthrew Pharaoh and his host in the Red sea: for his mercy endureth for ever.
    16 To him which led his people through the wilderness: for his mercy endureth for ever.
    17 To him which smote great kings: for his mercy endureth for ever:
    18 And slew famous kings: for his mercy endureth for ever:
    19 Sihon king of the Amorites: for his mercy endureth for ever:
    20 And Og the king of Bashan: for his mercy endureth for ever:
    21 And gave their land for an heritage: for his mercy endureth for ever:
    22 Even an heritage unto Israel his servant: for his mercy endureth for ever.
    23 Who remembered us in our low estate: for his mercy endureth for ever:
    24 And hath redeemed us from our enemies: for his mercy endureth for ever.
    25 Who giveth food to all flesh: for his mercy endureth for ever.
    26 O give thanks unto the God of heaven: for his mercy endureth for ever.

    Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

    Good luck hearing Psalm 136 in a Reformed church. :rolleyes:
     
  16. The Biblicist

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    Gentleman, how do you explain the limit the Father placed on whom He was willing to give to the Son for eternal life if God wills that every human being be saved? It would seem if your position were correct the Father would have never placed a restriction on whom He gives to the Son to be saved?

    Jn. 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

    1. He has power over "ALL FLESH"
    2. But Jesus is only to give eternal life to only "as many as" as the Father gave him?

    If your position were correct the Father should have given him "ALL FLESH" not a limited number for eternal life???? It is the Father that placed the limitation.

    Furthermore, Jesus siad that "ALL that the Father gives to me shall come to me and he that cometh to me I shall in no wise cast out.....And this is the will of the Father which sent me that OF ALL which the Father gives me I SHALL LOSE NOTHING"

    Since, OF ALL GIVEN none are lost but ALL COME and coming is conditioned on first being given by the Father as "shall come" is FUTURE TENSE. If your soteriology were correct then the Father should have given Christ "ALL FLESH" and then said "as many as come" I will not cast out. It seems the restriction is determined by the Father's choice of whom He gives to the Son?


    "
     
  17. Rippon

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    You say the silliest things Winman. Your "point" is so easily disproved.

    I went to sermonaudio.com. There are 107 sermons on Psalm 136. I would make an educated guess that most are from Calvinists.

    Here are a sample few for your consideration. I think the first preacher mentioned is one of the best today. I have heard him in-person several times. I heard the second personally as well. The rest of the preachers I will list are all Calvinists --I simply looked at their info.

    Dr. Michael Barrett :The Song Of Mercy

    Steve J. Lawson :Everlasting Love

    Paul Michael Raymond : The Godly Give Thanks

    Barry Beukema : Giving Thanks For Enduring Love

    Jim West : God's Covenant Mercy Is Celebrated Umpteenth Times

    Dan Donovan : Give Thanks To God

    Stephen Hamilton : Why We Offer Thanksgiving To God

    My little red Sing Psalms New Metrical Versions of the Book of Psalms published by the Psalmody Committee of the Free Church of Scotland has it on one and a half pages. It wasn't purged Wm. And more importantly it is not missing from my copies of the Scripture. Don't come up with such nonsense.It is very immature.
     
    #17 Rippon, Nov 17, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 17, 2013
  18. Earth Wind and Fire

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    I'm not questioning GOD...Im questioning mans interpretation of God.
     
  19. Winman

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    Once again, you presume your view is correct, when that is the question.

    Yes, God has the power to give eternal life to whomsoever he chooses, but he has chosen to only give life to those who meet the condition of believing on his Son.

    Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
     
  20. The Biblicist

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    Once again, you reverse, thus repudiate the Biblical order. "shall come" is future tense in regard to "giveth" and therefore by simple grammar "shall come" is conditioned upon first being given. You are simply perverting and thus rejecting God's words and rearranging them to suit your own desires.
     
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