Sanctification not inclusive of Justification

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by The Biblicist, May 19, 2012.

  1. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
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    Rom. 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
    6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,


    Rome and those who follow her basic soteriology attempt to define justification so that it is inclusive of sanctification.

    They reason that justification is without works, that is, works of the flesh, or works of the law, or works of the ceremonial law, or by some kind of works not produced by the Spirit.

    However, they insist that justification is by works produced works through the believer by the Spirit so that by the time judgement day occurs the righteousness that justifes the believer is that righteousness that has been produced by the Spirit throughout the life of the believer.

    In other words, they interpret Romans 4 (Justification by imputation) by Romans 6-8 (regenerational produced sanctification) instead of Romans 6-8 (regenerational produced sanctification) as additional to Romans 4 (justification by imputation).

    Paul repudiates any kind of works produced through the sinner or believer as what justifies the elect in Romans 3:24-5:1.

    Romans 4:5-6 spells this out in no uncertain terms.

    1. Works are contrasted with "believeth" rather than included - v. 5

    2. The person being justified is "ungodly" in regard to their own person - v. 5

    3. The justification is by righteousness imputed not imparted - vv. 5-6

    4. This imputation/reckoning/counted is "without works." - v. 6


    Therefore, those who argue that faith is a work or that works are inclusive of "believeth" are repudiated by Paul in verse 5 and the words "worketh not but believeth"

    Therefore, those who argue that this believing person has already been justified is repudiated by Paul in verse 5 and the present tense "justifieth" the 'UNGODLY" rather than past tense already "justified".

    Therefore, those who argue that this believing person WILL BE justified through IMPARTED righteousness by spiritual union with Christ are repudiated by the terms "counted...imputeth" in verses 5-6.

    Therefore, those who argue that this is speaking of eternal justification before this person is even born are repudiated by the words that demand this righteousneses is in regard not only to the "ungodly" but that believeth and imputeth are concurrent actions and that is proven by the tenses.

    In conclusion, the term "justification" is a forensic/legal/courtroom term. The "ungodly" is the defendent in the divine courtroom. The evidence against him is laid out in Romans 1:18-3:23 and he is unescapably found personally guilty and condemned under law (Rom. 3:19-20). However, the "propitiation" or satisfaction of the righteous life of Christ is presented by His Advocate as the object of the "ungodly" man's faith which completely satisfies all the demands of God's law in behalf of the "ungodly" and based upon the evidence of Christ's righteous works imputed to the "ungodly" by faith the "ungodly" man is declared righteous legally and positionally.

    However, based upon another simeltaneous work of grace IN the person of the "ungodly" he is quickened "through faith" (Eph. 2:5,8) and brought into spiritual union with Christ whereby the righteousness of Christ is being progressively IMPARTED according to the measure of grace and faith determined soverignly by God (Rom. 12:3,6; Eph. 2:10b) that will never be finished in the life of the believer nor equal between believers that only glorification will consumate AT the glorification of the body and BEFORE the judgement seat of Christ so that they ALREADY stand SINLESS before they come before the judgement seat of Christ so that their works determine rewards not heaven.
     
  2. billwald

    billwald
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    Protestant Christianity has been made so complicated that it is a miracle that anyone would convert from another religion or denomination.
     
  3. savedbymercy

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    Paul made a contrast, but he did not state that believing was not a work !

    His argument is pretty basic, its that man is not Justified by what he does, but it was revealed to him that he has been Justified by another, and he believes that !

    Believing is still an act of the mind[A work], though it is the renewed mind given when one was born again.

    And, The Resurrection of Christ from the dead is evidence that all for whom Christ died are Justified ! Rom 4:25

    25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.


    To deny the Testimony of the resurrection, you deny the merits of Christ's Death !
     
    #3 savedbymercy, May 19, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: May 19, 2012
  4. The Biblicist

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    No, the context makes it clear that this is a direct contrast meant to deny that faith is of works but it is of grace. Verse 4 repudiates that bellieving is a work of man but is rather a gift of grace as does verse 16.

    The whole point of verses 1-4 is to demonstrate that justification by faith cannot be of works or otherwise Abraham could "glory" (boast). The whole point of Romans 4:5-6 is to assert that imputed righteosness by faith is "without works."

    You still have no figured out the difference between justifying faith and sanctifying faithfulness! Justifying faith simply RECEIVES and RESTS upon the promise of the gospel whereas "faithfulness" RESPONDS in obedience to Christ's commands out of love.

    You still have not figured out that Faith receives what Christ did for you whereas faithfulness is what you do for Christ.

    You still have not learned that faith in Christ is "given" by the Father (Jn. 6:64-65) and is due to God drawing the elect and thus is "the work of God" instead of the work of man (Jn. 6:29).

    You still have not learned that faith in Christ is inclusive of regeneration as we are quicked "through faith" (Eph. 2:8).

    You still have not learned that Jesus is the "author" and "finisher" of that faith (Heb. 12:2) and thus not a work of man.

    You still have not learned that it is God's work which God begun in you and it is God that will sustain faith until that day - Philip. 1:6.

    You still have not learned that faith is a fruit of the Spirit (Gal. 5:22).

    You still have not learned that faith is a "gift" of God and "not of works" - Eph. 2:8-9

    You still have no learned this due to your false doctrine of eternal justification without faith.
     
  5. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy
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    the bib

    Believing is a work of man,it is something he does with his mind ! You have yet to show any scripture that states believing is not a work ! I have showed time and time that believing falls under the definition of a work by the word God inspired the writers to use for work, its the word ergon:

    business, employment, that which any one is occupied

    a) that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking

    2) any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind

    3) an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work
     
  6. The Biblicist

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    All you have done is spout out denials when in fact you have NOT ONCE dealt with the scriptures given you OR demonstrated why my exposition is wrong! I will tell you why! You can't and so you simply ignore the scriptures and spout out hot air!

    Do you really think making denials overturns what those scriptures explicitly state????????? If so, that is sheer willing ignorance!
     
  7. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
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    Try looking at the text and dealing with it honestly and instead of ignoring what it says:

    Rom. 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
    5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
    6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,


    QUESTIONS:

    1. What is counted for righteosness in verse 3 and 5? "believeth...it was counted for righteousness"

    2. How is righteousness not imputed in verse 6? "imputeth righteosness....WITHOUT works"

    If faith or believing is works then harmonize how "faith" can be counted for righteousness and yet righteousness be counted "without works"???


    Use your brain for a change and actually address the problem presented.
     
  8. savedbymercy

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    the bib

    I have not denied anything but your falsehoods. Believing is a work, you have not produced anything saying its not.

    I have showed time and time that believing falls under the definition of a work by the word God inspired the writers to use for work, its the word ergon:

    business, employment, that which any one is occupied

    a) that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking

    2) any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind

    3) an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work
     
  9. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy
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    the bib

    Thats wrong, that God is Justifying the ungodly is quite different from God is justifying the believer ! That means that God Justifies while one is Ungodly. Its the same as the elect have been reconciled to God, while they are enemies or ungodly, by the Death of God's Son Rom 5:10 I know you reject that Truth as well, for you reject the death of Christ, its accomplishments !
     
  10. The Biblicist

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    Any fool can say "you are wrong"! However, this is a discussion board. I presented the above evidence taken directly from Romans 4:3-6 and asked you to respond to specific questions. Are you capable of doing that?

    All you are doing is showing you are Biblically illiterate.
     
  11. savedbymercy

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    Any reasonble person can see that believing is an act of man, therefore a work !
     
  12. The Biblicist

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    Any fool can say "thats wrong" but it takes a Bible student to demonstrate it is wrong by the context. That you have not even attempted to do. You think you can take a verse in one chapter and force it into another chapter and presto you have an argument. All you are showing is ignorance of God's Word.

    Paul has contextually proven from Romans 1:18-3:23 that there is NONE righteous, no, not one human being born into this world comes into this world "good" or "righteous" and therefore "THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE" between all humans born into this world as "all have sinned" and all "have come short of the glory of God" and thus ALL are "ungodly." Whether they are elect or non-elect makes no difference.

    Paul has directed the reader to Abraham as an example to prove that none are justified by works before God but all who are justified before God are justified by faith. This is easily proven by the context. In Romans 3:27 he introduces the idea of "boasting" in connection with the "law" of works versus the "law" of faith. Hence, the contextual contrast has been set before the reader between "works" and "faith" as the basis for justification before God. He has denied anyone is justified by "works" but asserted they are justified by faith (Rom. 3:28) because justification by faith is the only basis to remove boasting before God.

    Romans 4:1-2 introduces Abraham to prove this point, that "boasting" or "glorying" only finds a basis in works for justification but not before God because Abraham was not justified by works but by faith (Rom. 4:3).

    Hence, the whole section of Romans 3:27-4:3 is a contrast between "works" and "faith" as the basis of justification before God.

    Yet you claim there is no contrast between "works" and "faith" in regard to justification as you claim "faith" is of "works."

    However, Romans 3:27-4:2 repudiates your idea as completely false and the absolute proof that your idea is false is that you are incapable of contextually justifying your idea - you cannot demonstrate by the immediate context your idea. You must simply ASSERT your idea as nothing but hot air based upon a dictionary definition.
     
  13. The Biblicist

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    Any reasonable person can clearly see you are an ignorant man who treats the Word of God with complete disregard and scorn. You cannot even confront the Biblical text and give a contextually based Biblical response.

    Readers, this is precisely the MO of every cultic Bible teacher. They are completely ignorant of God's Word, they cannot deal with the scriptures by any contextual based manner but simply repudiate the Word of God by their ignorant and unfounded assertions.

    Reader, notice SMB cannot answer my questions because it requires HONESTY with the context and honesty with the context would expose SBM for what he is - a false teacher with false doctrine.

    Try again!

    Rom. 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
    5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
    6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

    QUESTIONS:

    1. What is counted for righteosness in verse 3 and 5? "believeth...it was counted for righteousness"

    2. How is righteousness not imputed in verse 6? "imputeth righteosness....WITHOUT works"

    If faith or believing is works then harmonize how "faith" can be counted for righteousness and yet righteousness be counted "without works"???


    Use your brain for a change and actually address the problem presented.
     
  14. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
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    What is wrong?

    1. Are you saying that "beleiveth" is not found in the present tense?

    2. Are you saying that "imputeth" is not found in the present tense?

    3. Are you saying that "justifieth" is not found in the present tense?

    What I have said is based upon the FACTS that the present tense is used in all three terms. Do you deny that?

    These grammatically FACTS repudiate the idea that Paul is referring to ETERNAL justification.

    These grammatically FACTS prove that the contextual kind of justification in view is the kind that takes place in time at the same point in time WHEN believing and imputing and justifying are concurrent with each other and with the state of being "ungodly."

    This proves grammatically that this is not a justification before faith nor is it a time after faith.

    This proves grammatically that this is not a state of ungodliness after justification by faith or a state of ungodliness before believing, justifying, imputing takes place.

    This proves grammatically you are teaching a lie.
     
  15. The Biblicist

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    Paul's use of the present tense for "justifieth....imputeth....believeth" demonstrates concurrent action between all three of these actions in regard to the "ungodly" person. Not BEFORE justifing, believing and imputing and not AFTER justifying, believing and imputing but WHEN justifying, believing and imputing.


    The present tense is not designed to show that they are all progressive actions as that is denied by several contextual factors.

    1. Justification renders the person no longer "ungodly" and so all these present tense terms are merely showing concurrent action.

    2. Justification is regarded as a finished and completed action at the point of faith and imputation PRIOR TO Abraham's submission to circumcision - v. 11

    3. Justification is regarded as a finished action that stands finished up to the present moment by the use of the Perfect tense - 5:2

    The present tenses used in Romans 4:3-6 demonstrate that justification, imputation, and believing are all concurrent actions with each other in regard to when that person is regarded IN the transition point from being regarded "ungodly" to being regarded "justified". Hence, prior to believing, imputing, justifying this person was in an "ungodly" state. However, after believing, imputing and justifying this person is no longer in the "ungodly" state. Therefore the context restricts the present tense application of all three of these terms between the before and after state of this man WHEN he is ungodly but is believing and thus being imputed righteousness which is justifying him.
     
    #15 The Biblicist, May 21, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: May 21, 2012
  16. savedbymercy

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    Believing is a work, an act of man, in any context it is used.
     
  17. The Biblicist

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    Readers look at SBM's response! Just HOT AIR! He cannot HONESTLY deal with the evidence placed before him so he spouts out HOT AIR. He cannot HONESTLY deal with the context of Romans 3:27-5:1 so he spouts out HOT AIR.

    He cannot HONESTLY repudiate the grammatical FACTS of the context - so he spouts out HOT AIR.

    We have placed the BIBLICAL evidence before him that he is wrong and he cannot make any kind of contextual based denial that my facts are wrong and so he simply spouts out HOT AIR.
     
  18. savedbymercy

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    God Justifies the ungodly is plain in scripture. Rom 4:5

    5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

    Notice, what Paul does not say " But believeth on Him that justifieth the beiiever" ! God in Grace is Justifying unbelievers, the ungodly ! Thats why its of Grace freely, without cause Rom 3:24

    24 Being justified freely by his grace through/on the account of the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

    Meaning simply His Death, His Blood !
     
  19. The Biblicist

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    Why can't you prove that then from the context of Romans 3:27-4:6????????

    If what you say is true then why can't you demonstrate it from the context?

    If what you say is true then why can't you answer the questions I presented by showing the readers where I am CONTEXTUALLY wrong in my interpretation of the context???? Why??

    I will tell the readers why. SBM can't because he is incapable of doing contextual based Bible interpetation.
     
  20. savedbymercy

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    All that is unnecessary, believing is something man does, nothing in Rom 3:27-4:6 states otherwise. Show one verse in that passage that states that believing is not a work ! You have not proved that !
     

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