Sandbagging Theology

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Thinkingstuff, Mar 30, 2009.

  1. Thinkingstuff

    Thinkingstuff
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    So, I was having this discussion at work with a co-worker (go figure). And they basically told me that they believe God sandbagged us. I will try to be verbatim here but I might miss a few things.
    Of course I had a good conversation with that person who wants to generalize God. But I wondered with the Calvinist and Freewill baptist here how you approach the problem of free will, original sin, and God's responsibility.
     
  2. ReformedBaptist

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    From the Calvinist viewpoint:


    Then I would tell him God commands Him to repent and believe the Gospel.

    RB
     
  3. Steven2006

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    When I hear people who think like that, these verses come to mind.

    Isa 29:16 You turn {things} around! Shall the potter be considered as equal with the clay, That what is made would say to its maker, "He did not make me"; Or what is formed say to him who formed it, "He has no understanding"?

    Isa 45:9 "Woe to {the one} who quarrels with his Maker-- An earthenware vessel among the vessels of earth! Will the clay say to the potter, 'What are you doing?' Or the thing you are making {say,} 'He has no hands'?

    Isa 64:8 But now, O LORD, You are our Father, We are the clay, and You our potter; And all of us are the work of Your hand.
     
  4. webdog

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    Ask him if love is possible apart from the option to not love...
     
  5. Thinkingstuff

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    So Doesn't this line:
    Kind of work against the elect since the elect are chosen by what God has foreseen and doesn't it mean God is not as Supreme as we say he is? Just curious.
     
  6. Thinkingstuff

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    I get your point how can the creation argue with the creator? The Greeks did it all the time. But if God created you flawed then isn't he altimately responsible for it?
     
  7. Thinkingstuff

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    He would probably say yes. However, his definition may differ from yours. Keep in mind I'm replying as this person might. I of course shared the gospel with him and explained he needed to change his paradigm of thinking when it came to God. I explained how ultimately he will be judged for his own sin. He hasn't accepted the Lord so you can pray for him and his salvation. He's a bit stubborn but I've dealt with stubborn people before so no big deal. He's more impressed by my life style rather than anything I say to him anyway. I hope he connects the dots between what I say and my life that he admires. See that my life is based on the saving power of Jesus Christ and is a witness of that. Usually people are the most difficult just before they accept Christ into their lives.
     
  8. Steven2006

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    Yes that really is the point, and one he needs to accept. We are in no position to question God.

    No, because we know God is just.

    Rev 15:3 They sing the song of Moses, the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying: "Great and marvelous [are] Your works, Lord God Almighty! Just and true [are] Your ways, O King of the saints! [fn]

    I have learned that often when people want to argue against God with their thoughts and reasoning it it fruitless to go around and around with them, I find it more effective instead to keep using scripture. I usually find it best to say something to the effect of, "I know this is true (or is not true) because the bible says this", and show them the verse. They are now not arguing with your logic, but the bible, you are simply the messenger showing them what God's word says.
     
  9. canadyjd

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    It must have been difficult for you, since apparently this unbeliever believed in a literal Gen. 1-3, and was attempting to understand it all.

    What did he say when you assured him that Adam and Eve were not real people, therefore there is no original sin; that Gen.1-3 was just a myth based on other ANE mythology, therefore there was no "fall from grace", and that human beings evolved from apes through natural selection rather being created in the image of God?

    Did it help his understanding of his lost condition before God?

    Oh, I see.....
    He must have been overwhelmed by your humility.

    peace to you:praying:
     
  10. Thinkingstuff

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    I'm not trying to boast but to explain so that I don't get a bunch of people saying that I wasn't witnessing to him. I was actually hoping to get more of a discussion about Calvanism verse Free will discussion based on his question. I wanted to avoid the "you need to witness" comments so I'm explaining up front.
    On the other hand you're pretty sarcastic guy. And the whole mythology verse literal interpretation is being discussed on another thread. And if you would actually read what I said you will find I don't deny mans fallen condition and I don't buy into your faulted logic that because I don't take creation literally that I therefore must not accept mans fallen nature. You seem rather bitter by your reply. I'm sorry you seem feel that all believers must agree with you 100% on everything to consider them Christian. I'm sorry that you may feel this way because in the end you miss out on many great christians who have a lot to offer. I've spent time with missionaries from different backgrounds (not all baptist). And they were able to fellowship and worship God together though they disagree about certain things. I think you see this more overseas than here in the states.
     
  11. rsr

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    I think you're misunderstanding Section 2, which is aimed to counter certain strains of Arminianism that contend that God knows who will choose to be saved, and those are the ones he elects. The Reformed position is that election is an act of God's sovereign will, not a result of what He knows from his foreknowledge. (Although, of course, in this case they would be identical.)
     
  12. rsr

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    BTW: Please keep the thread focused on the topic and hand and leave extraneous matters and personalities aside.
     
  13. Tom Butler

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    Maybe you ought to hit him with this first instead of last.
     
  14. Thinkingstuff

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    Well explain what it means. Because if I read it plainly it seems to rely on God's foreknowledge. But maybe I'm missing something. On the other hand if God elected those of us that are saved isn't God ultimately resposible for our destruction? How could someone not elected be blamed for their condition?
     
  15. rsr

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    It makes more sense if you eliminate an extraneous comma:

    Or, as Spuregon recast it:

    That is, God's election is not based on what he knows will or won't happen.
     
  16. Benjamin

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    Of course it gets a lot deeper but, I’d handle it something like this:

    Co-worker: "I mean God gave us free will what did he expect?

    In the beginning, God gave us life, in His likeness and image, but we are not gods. When He finished creating the world He said it was “very good” although, He knew His creatures fall short of being perfect. He didn’t change the very good, we did. So why did He let man fall short on his own free choice by eating of the tree of knowledge? I mean He put the tree there! What did He expect? After Adam and Eve ate of the fruit of knowledge, they became judges between good and evil, or so they thought, but God said, “Behold, man has become one of us to know good and evil,” You see, the Devil told Eve that she wouldn’t die, her eyes would be open, and she would know these things. Adam and Eve thought they could be judges between good and evil; gods if you would. Do you think man can compare his judgment to Gods? Well, many do because of pride, they want to be their own judge and decide their own fate.

    BTW, another tree in that garden was the tree of life and the rest of that verse says: “and unless man puts forth his hand and also takes of that tree” well, God drove man out of the garden and He kept the “WAY” to the tree of life.

    Co-worker: Original sin - What's that?

    Well, that term is not actually in the Bible, but it is used to explain man disobeying God and eating of the tree of knowledge. It was much more than an apple tree by the way. Ever read the Book of Genesis, the beginning of God’s creation? It’s all there.

    Co-worker: I mean he made us then gave us free will we weren't always going to make the right choice were we?

    Nope, Jesus said there is “none good but one” who do you suppose that is, and where is He? The Kingdom of Heaven is God’s and it is a perfect place, we creatures that fall short of being good don’t belong in a perfect place. But God loves the world so much that He provided a Way for us to be with Him in His Kingdom, through His Spirit. Do you understand how that works?

    Co-worker: God sandbagged us!

    God made us in love; have you ever considered the alternative of not being created? No “co-worker”….(shake head, shrug shoulders and sigh)…. lol

    Co-worker: He set us up for the fall! God is ultimately responsible because he made us and gave us free will."

    Actually, our Creator plain out told man not to eat of tree of knowledge and if he did he would die. Did you know that God, before He even created the world, knew man would make that choice. Did you know that in His love for His creation that He promised through the Son before the very beginning of creation to provide a Way for anyone that would have faith in Him? He knew we would fall so He made it so simple that all you have to do is to ask, seek, knock and He’ll open the door to your faith to the truth of His Grace. He gives us the truth through the Holy Spirit and right there in a letter to us, starting with Genesis, and this to every one of us, so we have no excuses, and HE will judge us righteously.

    Because of pride, many don’t want to accept a higher power than themselves, they hate the truth. The Bible talks about that too. But that’s OK, they have free will, and THEY will TRULY be responsible for THEIR OWN CHOICES which only God will judge. Problem is, if they choose themselves THEY won’t receive God’s grace and be with Him in Heaven for eternity. To me being separated from God for eternity is certainly some kind of Hell that I don’t want to know. Men may want to be their own gods but they can’t create their own Heaven, so again, have you considered the alternatives to being made and where to spend eternity? In my free will I choose to be with God, I believe in His promises, and I believe in His love. I thank Him for creating us creatures.
     
  17. ReformedBaptist

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    No, it means that God chooses not because of what He forsees, i.e. faith, good works, et. He chooses of His own will and good pleasure.
     
  18. Thinkingstuff

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    Ultimately does that mean God is ultimately responsible for those he did not choose? Is it really fair to punish someone for eterninty that you've set up?
     
  19. Thinkingstuff

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    Ibid......
     
  20. ReformedBaptist

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    My statement of faith answers that question already.
     

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