Sats phd

Discussion in 'Baptist Colleges / Seminaries' started by UZThD, Mar 9, 2010.

  1. UZThD

    UZThD
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    The South African authorities have allowed the South African Theological Seminary to change its doctoral nomenclature from D.Th. to Ph.D. Other aspects of the program are unchanged.
     
  2. PilgrimPastor

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    What kind of cost is associated with a doctoral program of that type with SATS?
     
  3. Dr. Bob

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    Better yet, what academics are associated with a doctoral program of that type with SATS?
     
  4. Rhetorician

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    Dr. Bob Reply

    I hope all are enjoying the blessing of our lovely Lord Christ:

    As most who know me can attest, I have played around for years doing another doctorate. I talked to them long and hard at SATS about the possibility.

    I wanted to do a "Life and Thought" type volume of John A. Broadus. They had to call in a newly minted ThD to talk to me about all of the ramifications. After many email exchanges and such, with where I am in; age, teaching full time already, publishing a few books, and now even starting a publishing concern; this mentor/supervisor told me to basically not waste my time.

    My point here is this. One of the reasons to do the PhD/ThD is to:
    1. Either study at a "big name" institution,
    2. Or, study with a big name person,
    3. Or, study something that has not been considered before.

    Now, neither of the three was met by SATS. Please do not think this "sour grapes" of me in my thinking. Although it may very well be. But, it might be best to lay back and let the program build some credibility before doing that advanced degree there.

    These are, of course, my two cents worth!

    "That is all!" :thumbs:
     
  5. UZThD

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    ---------

    about $8000
     
  6. UZThD

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    -----------

    what type of academic doc is yours?
     
    #6 UZThD, Mar 12, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 12, 2010
  7. UZThD

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    -------

    Have you begun such a program elsewhere or sold your ThD/PhD thesis idea to any other school? Didn't you seek employment with SATS and were turned down?
     
    #7 UZThD, Mar 12, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 12, 2010
  8. Rhetorician

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    Bill Response

    Bill,

    Good to hear from you, I hope you are well.

    In the spirit of full disclosure, I did pursue a job and mentor with them and was turned down. That is one reason I made the comment about my perspective may indeed be "sour grapes." :smilewinkgrin: And "no" I have not shared my thesis idea with anyone else.

    Ideas? I would like to hear some feedback from credible sources here at the BB.

    "That is all!"
     
  9. PilgrimPastor

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    I'm curious how american Bible Colleges / Seminaries typically view that degree; specifically with regard to recognition for teaching standards by accreditation agencies.

    I believe that Ergun Caner has a degree from a school in South Africa (perhaps same one?) and it has not stopped his ability to teach / preside over a regionally accredited seminary. Although I think he may have another doctorate that is from an accredited seminary in the U.S.

    I have noticed degrees from that institution on a few prominent Bible teacher's bios over the years. That would lead me to tend toward a highly credible view of their programs...
     
  10. Havensdad

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    Ergun's Degree is from UNISA, I believe. There was (don't know if there still is) a faculty member at Liberty who had an MTh from SATS.

    If you look on ANY faculty roster, of any large seminary, you will invariably see at least one or two with doctoral degrees from SA. Doctoral degrees are expensive, and many choose this less expensive route.

    I know when I was checking out SATS, there were several faculty members at Southern who had SA degrees: which is one of the reasons I chose to go that way for an undergrad.
     
  11. TomVols

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    I haven't seen it much. Very rarely. Who at SBTS has such?
     
  12. Rhetorician

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    Tom Vols Response

    Tom,

    For the record, I was thinking as I said in many places before of doing a ThD at UNISA (The University of South Africa). At that time Don Whitney was working on one there. I talked to him extensively about all of the issues. So there is one for sure.

    Another case in point is that of Dr. Dorothy Patterson. We all know who she is. I think Dr. Patterson's came from UNISA.

    There are two in SBC life who have them and who use them.



    "For what it is worth!" :smilewinkgrin:
     
  13. Martin

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    ==Unlike most presidents of major seminaries, it is hard to nail down certain factual information about Dr. Caner. There is no doubt he holds a ThD from the University of South Africa, a Master of Arts degree from Criswell College, a ThM and a MDiv degree from Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary. However it seems that he also holds a DMin that, for some reason, is rarely mentioned in his bio. Caner's disappearing DMin has been mentioned by others. One blogger said it was from an Emmanuel University, but I have not been able to verify that or figure out which Emmanuel University it would be (since there are many such schools).

    I don't think Caner got his current job at Liberty University soley because of his education. Sure, he has the degrees for the job, but I think his friendship with the late Jerry Falwell had a lot to do with it as well. IMO, there is nothing wrong with a degree from University of South Africa (etc). However many colleges and universities want instructors/professors with regionally accredited degrees.
     
  14. Havensdad

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    Then you have not paid attention.

    Southern Baptist Theological Seminary
    Donald Whitney
    Th.D. (candidate), University of South Africa

    Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary

    Dorothy Patterson
    Professor of Theology in Women's Studies
    D.Theol., University of South Africa, 1998


    Keith Eitel
    Professor of Missions, Director of the World Missions Center, and Dean of the Roy Fish School of Evangelism and Missions
    D.Theol., The University of South Africa, 1999

    Temple Baptist Seminary
    Marvin Jones Chair, Biblical Studies Department; Assistant Professor of Theology (Also teaches at New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary through North Georgia Hub/extension)
    D. Theol., University of South Africa.


    As I said, bro, pretty much at least one or two at every Seminary.
     
  15. preachinjesus

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    Well what about:
    Midwestern
    Golden Gate
    Southeastern
    Trinity Evangelical Divinity
    Calvin
    Reformed
    Dallas Theological
    Gordon-Conwell
    Denver
    Talbot

    just curious if you might know of any of them? :smilewinkgrin:
     
  16. preachinjesus

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    Dr. Caner is in the same vein as Danny Lovett (his predecessor) in terms of being a strong personality and good speaker. What he has been able to do that Lovett did not is begin assembling a theologically robust seminary faculty. Dr. Caner has moved LBTS, as far as I know, far beyond where Lovett left it when we left. (I'm not speaking to you condemningly btw just sorta conversation)

    He did get his foot in the door with Dr Falwell for sure, but he has some good credential (thankfully not an honorary doctorate.)
     
  17. preachinjesus

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    really?

    I mean, really? $8,000 and you've got a PhD?

    I'm sure there is more work to be done but I haven't found many people who get into the program that can't complete the work. Our faculty (which I'm an adjunct prof) was recently interviewing candidates for a position and we came across a fellow with his ThD (or whatever it is) from there and we just kept moving.

    No personal offense intended, I believe you are a fine Christian with earnst devotion to Christ, but to suggest a degree from SATS is on the level with other institutions is just not right. This goes for many institutions though. You put someone from say, SATS, up against someone with a PhD/ThD from SBTS, TEDS, DTS, CTS, etc (I'm sure I'm leaving some out) the SATS person doesn't get a second look...unless they have made reparations and gone and gotten a second PhD.

    Not being mean just honest....from a faculty standpoint. Which is what matters for getting a PhD/ThD.
     
  18. TomVols

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    Havens,
    No need to be strident my friend. I knew about Dorothy and Don, and Caner too. But you said:
    Citing one at SBTS (who had much more than that prior to his hiring), an adjunct at SWBTS, and one from Temple, that's all you cite. Given that we have hundreds of faculty at SBC seminaries alone, this is not a large number. Also, I still haven't seen any at other major evangelical seminaries (I doubt the mainliners would have them, and that's nothing for UNISA, et.al to be ashamed of).

    It is not meant to be an offense to you friend. At one time I considered SATS and UNISA for a terminal research doctorate. But the idea that evangelical seminaries are crawling with their alumni, that they are breeding grounds for our faculty, is not in my mind a proven notion. Given what's been cited, my contention that it's rare in my mind remains true. But again, that's not to impugn the quality of a South African degree.

    Martin, you've touched on something that has been talked about extensively, and Caner (to my knowledge) has never fully addressed this. There's a lot about the Caner boys that defy/warrant explanation, and so far (again , to my knowledge), none has come forth. I should probably say no more as I know both of them personally.
     
  19. Martin

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    ==No offense to anyone who has earned their PhD/ThD from SATS or UNISA, but I view them as shortcut doctorates. As far as I know, those programs do not require the GRE or MAT nor do they require post-graduate course work. I am also under the impression that there is not much competition for spots in those programs. It seems that they accept anyone who has a good research idea. Many years ago there was a controversy in the school district where I was attending because our principle earned her EdD from Nova Southeastern which, at the time, was a dissertation only program. The district finally ruled that they would not honor EdD degrees earned in a dissertation only program. I believe Nova is different now.

    Again, I am not trying to offend anyone who has earned their doctorate degree(s) via UNISA or SATS. Nor am I saying that the programs those schools offer are not quality. However I am saying that I personally don't believe, and this is my opinion, that those programs offer the same level of education that a Duke, Chapel Hill, Southern, or Southeastern do. I also wonder how widely accepted degrees from those schools are in the United States. The people who hold degrees from those schools and who have teaching jobs at seminaries very well maybe an exception to the rule. Most teaching jobs I have seen, at colleges and Universities, require a regionally accredited degree. I would advise any would be doctorate student to earn their degree from a regionally accredited university. That could be Liberty University's PhD or DMin programs, or the programs at Southeastern Baptist, Southern Baptist, Wheaton, or Trinity Evangelical (etc). While no PhD, DMin, or EdD can guarantee you a job, mainly in today's environment, you probably have better chances with degrees from those schools than with a degree from UNISA or SATS.

    I think "preachinjesus" has given us a perfectly good example that supports what I am saying. If I were on a search committee, say for a new history or religion instructor, I am going to look at the folks with degrees from regionally accredited universities before I would give a second look to someone with a degree from SATS or UNISA.

    I pray that everyone who reads this will understand that (a) it is my opinion and (b) that it is offered in love (not as an attack or condemnation of those who have degrees from SATS or UNISA).
     
  20. Martin

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    ==I try to be careful what I say since I am an alumni of Liberty Baptist Theological Seminary and because I don't want to be seen as throwing mud or picking on someone. I have heard Dr. Ergun Caner preach in person and, as you know, he is a very powerful speaker. However I think there are some unanswered questions that he should answer. By trying to go below the radar when these questions are raised I am afraid he is doing damage to my alma mater (Liberty Baptist Theological Seminary).
     

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