1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Sats phd

Discussion in 'Baptist Colleges & Seminaries' started by UZThD, Mar 9, 2010.

Top Posters
Page 2 of 2
  1. Martin

    Martin Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2005
    Messages:
    5,229
    Likes Received:
    0
    Faith:
    Baptist
    ==Yes, I graduated when Lovett was chancellor of the seminary. There is no doubt that the seminary has grown and added great new faculty and degree programs since I graduated. Without a doubt, Liberty Baptist Theological Seminary is one of the best seminaries in the nation. Some of that is due to the vision of Drs. Lovett and Caner. However I still think most of the credit goes to the late Jerry Falwell. That man had an incredible vision for Christian education that far too many Christians in education lack. He had Liberty University doing distance learning before online learning was the trend. The school was a step ahead the others, and in many ways still is, thanks in large part to the vision that God gave Jerry Falwell. As always, I praise the Lord for the ministry and work of Jerry Falwell.

    Having said that, however, I still maintain that Falwell made a mistake making Dr. Caner the chancellor and then president of the seminary. While Dr. Caner has the educational background for it, I don't believe he has the academic maturity needed for such a position. The latest explosion over some of his debate claims is just another example of why I believe he was not the best choice.
     
    #21 Martin, Mar 13, 2010
  2. UZThD

    UZThD New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2004
    Messages:
    1,238
    Likes Received:
    0

    ---------

    $8000 was the out of pocket expense estimate. The other "expenses" involve time and effort. It may take a year just to get a research proposal acccepted. My own doc took four years after the MDiv/THM work.

    Were one to suggest that the SATS research PhD is wanting in scholarship is to imply that the SA government which accredits the SATS degrees are incompetent and the external readers from other universities who along with the SATS faculty evaluate dissertations lack scholarship or truthfulness. I'd like to see someone attempt to prove that.

    I have teaching credentials "from" two RA , USA unis based mostly on graduate work in English and Special Ed, I also completed work for the MA, MDiv, and ThM degrees in Bible/Theology from two USA RA schools, and I spent more years on a research D.Th. at a public uni in SA. Profs from four schools, three SA and one USA (the latter who has his PhD from Dallas) read my dissertation with much approval .

    Judge my research for yourself by reading my three articles in Christology on line in Conspectus, the SATS journal. I think I'm qualified to judge the quality of the SATS programs. The quality is good.

    My SA doc finished in 2005 has been the basis ,even in my advanced age, for co authoring a book with H. Wayne House, writing those three journal articles, and presently writing two chapters for a theological encyclopedia. I also keep busy evaluating under grad and grad coursework and theses research for SATS. So, I feel my SA doc serves me well.

    But it certainly is true that if you study in order to have a job in the USA, then, by all means, get a degree from a USA school! I do not debate that! So, if earning money is one's goal, do a US doc.

    But given that research docs are the common British and European model, the SA process should not be viewed as necessarily wanting because its focus is on research. I have a friend with a THM from TEDS now doing a research doc at Edinburgh. He could not be convinced that he is taking "the easy route"!

    As for me, I studied to learn not to get hired --having completed my doc at 65 years of age after retiring from 35 years of public school teaching. My motivation was instead to know Scripture and what it taught about ontological and economic Trinal relationships and incarnational Christology--not to earn money.

    My motivation was to express, after research, my arguments and opinions in a manner deemed convincing and scholarly by qualified evaluators from several accredited schools and making a contribution to the literature on the subject.

    Now, soon to be 70, I with gratitude spend the rest of my energy and life defending my thesis that God is not the Sovereign over or Cause of GOD despite that being the common view of many, many American Evangelicals whose education , often American, does not prevent such errors. SATS provides me the opportunity to do that. For that I'm thankful.

    God forgive me if I'm wrong.
     
    #22 UZThD, Mar 13, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 13, 2010
  3. UZThD

    UZThD New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2004
    Messages:
    1,238
    Likes Received:
    0
    By the way, I have in my possession a ThM TEDS thesis on the eternational relational subordination of the Son for which Grudem was the first reader. It, in my estimation, is quite poorly written; I'd be happy to illustrate! But it does agree with Grudem's view that unless the Father eternally bosses the Son, and the Son flitters arounds the pre creation emptiness carying out the Father's orders, the Trinity just could not exist! How convenient for that student that his thesis agrees with Grudem's systematic!

    USA ed=assurance of quality? Ummm, don't think so.

    USA education much better than SA? Tell that to Philip Comfort, PhD Fairfax, D. Litt et Phil, Unisa.
     
    #23 UZThD, Mar 13, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 13, 2010
  4. Havensdad

    Havensdad New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2007
    Messages:
    3,382
    Likes Received:
    0
    Brother,

    Did you actually read what I said? I said "one or two" at pretty much every Seminary. I did not say seminaries were "crawling" with SA doctorate holders. You would be hard pressed to find an accredited seminary in the U.S., that did not have at least ONE SA degree holder. And I would bet my toes that if you found one, there would be someone with an equivalent, European style doctorate on the faculty from some other oversea institution (England, France, Switzerland, Germany, etc.). It just is not that unusual.
     
    #24 Havensdad, Mar 13, 2010
  5. Havensdad

    Havensdad New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2007
    Messages:
    3,382
    Likes Received:
    0
    Dr. Grover,

    Not to derail the thread, but is it your contention that the Son is not eternally subordinate to the Father? I know your a bit out of my league, but that seems to contradict the Scriptures, and the teaching of the church for 2,000 years..
     
    #25 Havensdad, Mar 13, 2010
  6. TomVols

    TomVols New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2000
    Messages:
    11,170
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yes, friend. I quoted what you said and in my mind it does not bear out under the evidence.

    As for an accredited evangelical seminary being rare that does NOT have a SA sem grad, I can find six within five minutes doing a quick google. So it's not hard to find accredited evangelical seminaries in this country without SA seminary degree holders. Now, British seminaries like Oxford, Aberdeen? Of course you have those. But we were talking about SA.

    Bear in mind again, this does not argue against the rigor or quality of a SA seminary research doctorate. To wit, I respectfully disagree with Martin and some others who argue against SA sems because they use alternative models, aren't expensive enough(?) etc. I do not believe our method is the only legitimate scholarly method, or that our accreditation process is the bene esse of a legitimate degree/school. I became more convinced of this having worked in higher education and participated in accreditation reviews.

    As moderator, I have to respectfully ask that you take this worthy subject to the theology thread. Thanks, friend.
     
    #26 TomVols, Mar 13, 2010
  7. Rhetorician

    Rhetorician Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2005
    Messages:
    2,208
    Likes Received:
    68
    Faith:
    Baptist
    UZ ThD Response

    Bill,

    When I was at Mid American Baptist Theological Seminary, I did not realize that there were going to be these kinds of debates. At one time the seminary was non-RA. It became RA while I was there and before I graduated, which we all thought was a great thing. And it truly was.

    But one of my favorite professors, whose name I probably should not use, told us of a few markers that would serve even if the RA (SACS) did not see fit to put their stamp of approval on the school. These are:
    1. Did the people in the churches of the SBC accept the grads of MABTS?

    2. Did the grads win souls, do the work of an evangelist, and pastor well God's people?

    3. Ultimately, did other institutions accept the credits from MABTS for transfer credit?

    I said all of that to say, I guess the "proof of the pudding is in the eating!" Your degree and my DMin have opened doors of service in God's Kingdom doing "more than we could ask or think." So, I am not sure that some will ever be satisfied that a degree from SATS or a DMin should or could be counted as "quality" enough for them. But I understand their mindset.

    We have what we have and are both glad. We are doing what God allows and are glad.

    And we serve the Lord Christ. Amen. Thank God for his goodness and eternal grace.

    "That is all!" :smilewinkgrin:
     
    #27 Rhetorician, Mar 13, 2010
  8. UZThD

    UZThD New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2004
    Messages:
    1,238
    Likes Received:
    0
    ---------

    Yes. IMO, God is not the boss of God. All subordination of the Son occurs in His humanity, IMO. That was the topic of my UZ dissertation.I argue that in the SATS Conspectus articles.

    Sorry Tom; I'll not say more here on Trinal relationships.
     
    #28 UZThD, Mar 14, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 14, 2010
  9. Havensdad

    Havensdad New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2007
    Messages:
    3,382
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hmm. Well I definitely disagree. When I get time (have too many classes going on right now), we will have to have a thread devoted to this subject.

    Regarding SATS Ph.D., it is basically the same format as the U.K. right?
     
    #29 Havensdad, Mar 14, 2010
  10. TomVols

    TomVols New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2000
    Messages:
    11,170
    Likes Received:
    0
    No worries. It's a worthy subject...in a germane forum :smilewinkgrin:
    I'd love to be part of the discussion.
     
    #30 TomVols, Mar 14, 2010
  11. UZThD

    UZThD New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2004
    Messages:
    1,238
    Likes Received:
    0
    -----------------

    It is my understanding that the PhD process SATS uses is the same research only method used in British schools.

    It might be well for some, not you, to realize something re the SATS PhD entry reqs

    1. the ThB , MTh at SATS, which are common entry pre requisites to the PhD include about the same number of Bible/Theology courses completed in some MDiv USA programs plus an accomplished thesis requiring , in my experience as supervisor, at least two years to finish.

    2. The USA MDiv , in comparison, may be started with no undergrad theological degree. So, one with a MDiv may only have 45 or so sem units in Bible/Theol.

    3. Yet the MDiv is enough to get one into some USA PhD programs!

    Just how that makes SATS deficit in prereqs, I don't see.
     
    #31 UZThD, Mar 15, 2010
  12. TomVols

    TomVols New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2000
    Messages:
    11,170
    Likes Received:
    0
    Well said. Some PhD programs are allowing M.Div folks in who have a whopping six hours of theology or 3 hours of homiletics, and these folks are doing doctorates in those fields? that's why I say folks shouldn't get on their hind legs about RA or ATS requirements. They're not setting the woods on fire. SA, British model, even reputable non-accredited schools are not to be denigrated for being different.
     
    #32 TomVols, Mar 15, 2010
(You must log in or sign up to post here.)
Page 2 of 2
Loading...