Saved and condemned at the same time? impossible

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by ILUVLIGHT, Apr 12, 2004.

  1. ILUVLIGHT

    ILUVLIGHT
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    Hi Everyone;
    The main argument between Arminians and Calvinist is regeneration. IMO it's why I can't accept Calvinism. Calvinism says that man is totally depraved and dead spiritually unable to respond to the gospel. He cannot seek God on his own. he has no choice in Salvation and is condemned regardless of his own wishes. His Salvation depends entirely on the regeneration of his spirit in order that he can here and believe.

    This regeneration I assume is done by the Holy Spirit. Making this verse below untrue;
    Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

    In;

    Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

    Calvinist also claim that even faith is a gift that man is unable to have faith on his own. Calvinist also believe that once regenerated or saved they will always be saved. Which is where a very strong contradiction appears in Calvinism's doctrines.

    Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

    This verse above presents an impossibility. If man is regenerated first, while still unable to believe in God, or even understand, or here the word of God. Then he would be saved before he even knows about Christ. This is the impossibility. How could one be regenerated or saved and be condemned at the same time for unbelief ?.

    We all know that there are no contradictions in the Bible. We also know that in order for something to be believable there cannot be any contradictions. I've sometimes found what I thought to be contradictions, but later the harmony of it was revealed to me. This particular contradiction isn't from the Bible but from Calvinism it self. What explanations could there be?

    May God Bless You; [​IMG]

    Mike
     
  2. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
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    Calvinism doesn't teach this at all. Man is condemned because he wishes to contineu in sin rather than coming to Christ as the only way. He is totally depraved and unable to seek God on his own. He doesn't want to. Scripture teaches that man is not seeking after God. He doesn't want God. So he is condemned because he wishes to remain in his sin.

    Secondly with regard to regeneration, faith, and knowledge, you are misguided on John 3:18. Calvinism believes that regeneration results in immediate faith. It is not apart from understanding or having the word of God. It is in conjunction with it. He is not saved before knowing about Christ.

    So no one is both saved and condemned at the same time. BTW, you seem to be confusing regeneration and salvation. Most calvinists understand that they are not synonymous. Man is regenerated so that he can believe. That immediate belief brings salvation. This verse, in the Calvinistic view, doesn't teach simultaneous salvation and condemnation. That would indeed be a contradiction.

    You are right taht there are no contradictions in the Bible. You have, unfortunately, constructed some straw men here that 1) Calvinism doesn't believe, and 2) Scripture doesn't teach. Simply put, there are no contradictions here.

    The main argument, BTW, is not regeneration. It is sovereignty and how it should be defined.
     
  3. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi Pastor Larry;
    If regeneration isn't being saved at what point in the act of Salvation do we become so. Regeneration means to be made a new creature this is Salvation to be made new. If we are new we are saved. How can one be regenerated and believe at the same time if they can't hear and understand before this happens.
    The impossibility is that man cannot be regenerated and condemned at the same time can he? Nor can he be elected and condemned at the same time.
    May God Bless You;
    Mike
     
  4. russell55

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    We are justified when we believe. Regeneration, faith, justification are instantaneous, but regeneration (in conjunction with hearing the word) is the logical cause of faith, and faith is a condition of justification.

    Regeneration is the very start of the process of being made new. You are not going to find any regenerated people who are not saved, because the nanosecond someone is regenerated, they embrace the gospel message and are justified through faith.

    They can certainly hear and understand the ins and outs of the gospel message before regeneration. They can understand what the gospel is asking of them, and what the gospel says they will receive in returen. What they won't do is buy into that message, They won't believe it, and they won't want it. That's what regeneration changes. The regenerated heart knows the value of the message to them. The words that were previously just ideas become "words of life".

    It is very possible to be elected and condemned at the same time. Every single elected person was at one time a under the condemnation of God and he remained under that condemnation until the nanosecond of his regeneration, faith and justification.
     
  5. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
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    Salvation is a broad term that describes the "regeneration/conversion" act. It is not a technical point in time.

    Not really ... REgeneration is giving spiritual life to the spiritually dead. Salvation is to be saved from sin. They are distinct.

    Because the inability to "hear and understand" is moral, not physical. They can hear the mesage. They simply do not apply it to themselves until they are regenerated at which point they do.

    Yes, I think that is impossible.

    This is not true. Election is in eternity past. Salvation takes place in time. Technically speaking, as long as one is in sin (i.e, prior to belief), they are condemned by that sin. However, election assures that they will believe and be freed from that condemnation.
     
  6. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi Russel55;
    If Totally depraved man can't hear before regeneration then how does one have faith which comes from hearing if all this happens at once as you say then. Regeneration to you is being saved as well because it happens all at once.
    Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
    This verse says that both faith and hearing comes from the word of God not regeneration.

    Yesterday my cousin came to visit His first question to me after picking him up at the terminal was have I seen "the Passion". It wasn't a question I expected him to ask. I've known him all my life and have told him about Jesus, but I always got the let's talk about something else look. When we got to my place he was still telling me all about it. I haven't seen it.

    I was able to answer all his questions.When all of a sudden he started crying. He said he couldn't understand how after all they did to Christ that He would say Father forgive them. I told him that is real Love in action. That's why I know that Jesus Christ is who he said he was because no man I've ever known could have said such a thing while being crusified. Then I asked him if he believes in Christ. He said NO, but he can't get it out of his mind. I hope he never gets it out of his mind.
    Why was this guy crying? I call it conviction of the truth. A look at ones own love in comparison to the true love of God.

    To me it is the conviction of the Holy Spirit that brings man to his knees. It is this conviction that pricks man in the heart and a seed is shoved in. Sometimes that seed grows sometimes it doesn't and sometimes many seeds over time have been planted and all of a sudden they respond and can't get enough of it like most of us here. Please pray for Vic.
    May God bless You;
    Mike
     
  7. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi Pastor Larry;
    After reading your post I thought this over really well before asking you this believe me, because I thought you were a Calvinist. Every Calvinist I've spoken with so far believes that being dead spiritually and not being able to hear is spiritual not moral. What is right in mans eyes isn't always what is right in God's eyes. Man uses words like moral God uses words like righteous
    I have to lock up my office I didn't realize it's after 4 pm. I'll be back. With you this evening when I get home.
    May God Bless You;
    Mike
     
  8. BrotherJoe

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    Brother Mike:

    YOU:Calvinism says that man is totally depraved and dead spiritually unable to respond to the gospel. He cannot seek God on his own.

    ME: Calvinism is simply following the Bible's lead in this regard. THE BIBLE says that man is unable to respond to God on his own,"Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, NEITHER INDEED CAN BE.
    8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God" (Romans 8:7-8)

    Now who is "in the flesh.?" The next verse tells us,"But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, IF so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you" (Romans 8:9)The key word is "IF." Thus, Brother Mike, this verse implies ANYONE who does not have the spirit is in the flesh. So one must conclude "If unregenerate people could choose Christ, then they could do at least something that is pleasing to God. If that is so, then the apostle has erred here in insisting that those who are in the flesh can neither be subject to God or please him." (Sproul Chosen By God)

    Saved by grace,

    Brother Joe
     
  9. BrotherJoe

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    Brother Mike,

    YOU: Then he would be saved before he even knows about Christ. This is the impossibility. How could one be regenerated or saved and be condemned at the same time for unbelief ?

    ME: Here you have misrepresented Calvinism. I do not believe any Calvinist here would claim that it is possible for one to be regerated and simutaneously not have faith in God OR have Christ revealed to him. Regeration is instantaneous and its immediate production is faith in God along with Christ having personally revealed himself to the individual.

    Were you error is in your unspoken presupposition that both faith in God and knowing Christ has to be the product of hearing a verbal presentation of the gospel. "For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb." (Luke 1:15) Musnt this have happen from a spiritual quickening independent of the gospel since the baby was still in the womb?

    "Jesus taught that those dead in trespasses and sins would be quickened by the power of his voice (Jn 5:25-29). In this same context it is taught this voice will also raise the bodily dead at the end of time. A man can give the words of Christ but not His voice, and as Christ will not use man to raise the bodily dead, neither does He use man to raise the spiritually dead." ( http://www.pb.org/abstract.html)

    Saved by grace,

    Brother Joe
     
  10. Eric B

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    OK, what about a person who begins searching, and it takes a while for him to be convinced and accept Christ. I thought the Calvinist would say he was regenerated when he began seriously seeking, since "no one seeks after God" (unless regenerated).
     
  11. BrotherJoe

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    Brother Eric B,

    Hello again.

    QUOTE: Calvinism believes that regeneration results in immediate faith.


    YOU: OK, what about a person who begins searching, and it takes a while for him to be convinced and accept Christ. I thought the Calvinist would say he was regenerated when he began seriously seeking, since "no one seeks after God" (unless regenerated).

    ME: I do not believe your scenario is scripturally possible. One cannot one be "seriously seeking", "regenerated" and yet not want to "accept" Christ upon hearing him. Why? Because Christ said, "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me" (John 10:27) There is no hesitation here, is there?

    "But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. To him the porter openeth; AND THE SHEEP HEAR HIS VOICE: AND HE CALLETH HIS OWN SHEEP BY NAME, AND LEADETH THEM OUT.
    4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, AND THE SHEEP FOLLOW HIM: FOR THEY KNOW HIS VOICE.
    5 AND A STRANGER WILL THEY NOT FOLLOW, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers." (John 10:2-5)

    The TRUE sheep in Christ's example did not hesitate to believe, nor will they, for they have the greatest leader. "But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul." (Hebrews 10:39)


    Saved by grace,

    Brother Joe
     
  12. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
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    Yes, I am a Calvinist. As for spiritual and moral, they mean essentially the same thing in this context. My point is that man's inability to believe is not because he can't understand the meaning of the words. It is not as if the language is foreign. It is the his spiritual or moral faculties are blinded by his sinfulness.

    Hope that clarifies.
     
  13. Eric B

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    So this means that all true converts just one day suddenly out of nowhere snap out of it, and instantly run to Christ? It's like there is no real drawing of the Spirit, just instant aceptance and belief?
    Considering that you are Primitive and hold somewhat different views on the Gospel and its relation to conversion (so I guess since the sheep were always really saved, it would be instant), I was wondering how the mainstream Calvinists would answer this.
     
  14. BrotherJoe

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    Brother Eric,

    YOU: So this means that all true converts just one day suddenly out of nowhere snap out of it, and instantly run to Christ?

    ME: Your either "dead in trespasses and sins" or "alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord." Scripture (and reality) for that matter, knows no half dead/half alive state, right?

    YOU:It's like there is no real drawing of the Spirit, just instant aceptance and belief?

    ME: Your correct IF one only narrowly applies the verse, "no man can come to me ,but the Father that sent me draw him"(John 6:44) in pertaining STRICTLY to a believer's FIRST coming to Christ ALONE.

    I do not take this narrow definition. Why cant the "drawing" be referring to our sanctification instead of our quickening? Certainly every Christian would agree that they feel the Lord "drawing" them closer to him throughout their Chrisian life and can choose to resist it or not? I do not think such an interpretation is so "wild" in light of the fact that in the next verse Christ quotes the scripture saying, "It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God". After all, both learning and being taught are components of how sanctification is accomplished.

    YOU: Considering that you are Primitive and hold somewhat different views on the Gospel and its relation to conversion (so I guess since the sheep were always really saved, it would be instant), I was wondering how the mainstream Calvinists would answer this.

    ME: Admittedly, if one views the "drawing" verse to apply strictly in terms of how "initial belief" occurs, it would seem contradictory if they also maintain grace to be irrestiable. Perhaps you have these "RASCAL" Calvinists at last, right Brother Eric? Just joking with you!!

    Saved by grace,

    Brother Joe

    [ April 13, 2004, 12:22 AM: Message edited by: BrotherJoe ]
     
  15. Skandelon

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    I guess Thomas wasn't a "true sheep" because he didn't believe until he saw Christ in person. He hesitated. He is disqualified.

    And I guess anyone who hesitates to believe the gospel isn't really a "true sheep" at all eventhough Jesus instructs his followers to "consider the cost" of being his disciple.

    What about Josh McDowell and Lee Strobel who are both very strong Christian authors who were once intellectual athesists who set out to disprove Christianity and were converted in the process by the evidence they discovered. Josh wrote "Evidence that demand a Verdict." And Lee wrote, "A case for Christ." I guess sense these guys "hesitated" in the light of the gospel they weren't true sheep?

    Interesting logic.
     
  16. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi Pastor Larry;
    Sorry about last night but I got sidetracked. Thats what I get for hanging around at work to long. Back to your post.
    A quote from you;
    Are you saying that if we are elected that there is no chance of being lost to death and hell. If what I just said is true then the elect doesn't need to be saved they are elected and will be saved. So in a sense they are already saved.
    May God Bless You;
    Mike
     
  17. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
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    Yes.

    Not at all. This is a classic mistake of confusing election with salvation. Notice in 1 Thess 2:13 and 2 Tim 2:10 that election is to salvation and is distinct from salvation. Eph 1:4 and 2 Thess 2:13 tells us that God's election took place in eternity past. Salvation takes place in time.

    No one is saved until they believe. They believe because they are first elect.
     
  18. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi Brother Joe;
    If man accepts the calling of God I would have to say that this is pleaseing to Him. The problem is, man can't do this on his own. God has to draw him first.

    So if man is being drawn then Calvinism has concluded that he is already regenerated and you don't consider that the work of the Holy Spirit is the conviction of truth but regeneration. In other words you would lable this regeneration rather than conviction.

    If God sends His Holy spirit to convict someone of the truth and they are convicted and converted how is that this is something man has done. Do you consider the conviction, a work of man?

    Being in the Spirit is something that even Christians are not in all the time if this were so man would no longer sin.
    You haven't read Pastor Larry's post in answer to my leading post.
    May God Bless You;
    Mike
     
  19. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
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    Hmm ... I am confused. Where did I disagree with what Joe said here?
     
  20. BrotherJoe

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    Brother Skandelon,

    YOU: I guess Thomas wasn't a "true sheep" because he didn't believe until he saw Christ in person. He hesitated. He is disqualified

    ME: Thomas had faith to believe Jesus was the messiah and manifested that faith by leaving everything he had to follow him. *******I never contended that a true sheep would never have doubts, but rather that they would initially accept the calling if they are currently regenerated.********

    Scripture does teach one can have faith and later go into a temporary spirit of unbelief "the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief" (Mark 9:24) and "If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself" (2 Tim 2:13) However, this isnt what was under
    discussion.

    YOU: And I guess anyone who hesitates to believe the gospel isn't really a "true sheep" at all eventhough Jesus instructs his followers to "consider the cost" of being his disciple.

    ME: Believing the gospel and being Jesus's disciple are two very different matters. The parable itself of the word and the sower says some believed and yet the word didnt prosper. If every believer is also a disciple then we would be forced to conclude those that brethern that Paul references that he " could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?" (1 Cor 3:1-3) That hardly fits my definition of a disciple, does it fit yours?


    YOU: What about Josh McDowell and Lee Strobel who are both very strong Christian authors who were once intellectual athesists who set out to disprove Christianity and were converted in the process by the evidence they discovered. Josh wrote "Evidence that demand a Verdict." And Lee wrote, "A case for Christ." I guess sense these guys "hesitated" in the light of the gospel they weren't true sheep?

    ME: Yes I believe they are true sheep, but the question is WHEN were they regenerated? Do you believe it was at the time they set out to disprove Christianity-certainly not. Perhaps only God alone can pinpoint the exact time. Do you believe it was possible for Stroubel to have been a regenerate when he was "seeking" but still thought the evidence though good for Christianity, still weighed heavier for atheism? Probably not. One thing we can both agree on however is that when they did trust Christ they were surely regenerated by this time.

    Saved by grace,

    Brother Joe
     

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