Saved by Baptism

I don't believe it is just a symbol. I believe it is an integral part of doing as God commands.


I find it impossible for an infant to know what is going on. This is the basis for my belief.

 

So now human intellect is a prereq for getting into heaven?

Now I feel sorry for all those who are mentally impaired.

 

If it isn't a symbol, tell me why can God not work his miracle of rebirth in infant child of believers?

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Godmetal:
So now human intellect is a prereq for getting into heaven?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No its not, we don't believe baptism saves.

Posted by tulpje: "Why bother witnessing Adam? Because it's like banging your head up against a wall!"

This is a very dangerous attitude. The idea that a priest/pastor and your parents can decide that they want you saved by having you baptized is also a dangerous idea. God doesn't need your help to save anyone. The Holy Spirit is the one who saves, you don't get to make that choice. Mary, the Bible is very clear, as Ephesians 2:8-9 examplifies- we are saved by faith, not by baptism. Look at the Bible as a whole before you decide that one or two verses tells it like it is.

Posted by Tour: "In any case, the Bible does say to repent, and it is impossible for an infant to repent. That point I believe you must conceed."

Really? Prove it. I believe that God can and does give infants faith- a common example of this is Elizabeth's child.

"No where does it say repent and then be baptised,"

Check out John the Baptist

"no where does it say teach and then baptised"

Check out Matthew 28:18-20 - Disciples are to be taught before they were baptized and afterwards. In other words: preach the gospel; those who are saved are baptized; and disciple them into the church.

"Adam, you can't have it both ways, it is either your work or God's work."

Sure you can. Example: I choose to go door to door witnessing, God chooses to use my message to change someone. I can't change anyones heart, but God can. Likewise- I choose whether to be obedient to God, and God chooses to work in my baptism (before I get jumped on when I say "work" in my baptism, I believe baptism to be more than a symbol, we are blessed in our baptism, but not saved).

"So now human intellect is a prereq for getting into heaven?"

I have no idea where you are getting this from. Baptism does not save. God will save who He chooses to. God does not bend to your will and choose to save whoever you (your church) choose to baptize. Intellect has nothing to do with salvation.

"If it isn't a symbol, tell me why can God not work his miracle of rebirth in infant child of believers?"

It is more than a symbol, but it does not save. Again, God does not need us to save His children, He clearly, being God, can do that all on His own. I believe He does save infants, according to that of His will.

UNP
Adam

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Check out Matthew 28:18-20 - Disciples are to be taught before they were baptized and afterwards. In other words: preach the gospel; those who are saved are baptized; and disciple them into the church <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think you need to reread that very carefully. Because it does not say what you think it says.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Check out John the Baptist
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

His Baptism was a different Baptism than that commanded by Christ.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Really? Prove it. I believe that God can and does give infants faith- a common example of this is Elizabeth's child. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is by faith that the full promise of Baptism is realized.
Then why can't an infant be baptized?

[ January 25, 2002: Message edited by: Godmetal ]

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Godmetal:
So now human intellect is a prereq for getting into heaven?

Now I feel sorry for all those who are mentally impaired.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Who's to say that the mentally impared aren't going to heaven?

 

Tuor, you do. They aren't anymore capable of "making a decision for Jesus" than an infant.

Adam, I take it you disagree with Holy Scripture where it says in 1 Peter: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> [1Pet 3:21.1] Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

 

Sir ed writes: "If he truly is responding to the Gospel he will be baptized."

Ed, Maybe I am reading between the lines but you are saying that the person became a Christian when they responded to the gospel and then would seek to be Baptized. If he gets hit by a car and is killed on the way to be Baptized then he would be in Heaven right? So isn't the Baptism a response then and not the thing that actually saves? Even in your own example Ed your belief doesn't agree with what you say.

I still say Baptism is over rated by todays church and mis-understood especially by the Big denominations. I have said before Paul down grades baptism some in 1 Cor. 1 and I go along with him. We need to worry more about spreading the Gospel and less about sprinkling the water!!!

In Christ,
Brian

 

Brian, I think you know me better than that. I have said numerous times that God can and does share his Grace with us in numerous ways; Baptism, reading the Word; hearing a preacher, etc.

 

Reading replies and saw an interesting point about what Sir Ed said about we were saved 2000 years ago. I've always believed that also but not that were saved as yet.
Everybody reading this ask your self a question Did you ask for or receive the ADAM sin by excepting it or did it come automatically? It was automatic, way before we were born or else why do they keep preaching that we are all sinners. I didn't ask for the sin nature of ADAM but I got it.
I didn't ask for JESUS atonement on the cross but I got it. How dare GOD do something like this ADAM or JESUS planning for HUMANITY without consulting me first but how could he, I wasn't even born yet. Then the Lord showed me something. He gave everybody the system he created for Humanity but there is one catch. You as a person have to except or BELIEVE that God did what he did for us, not RECEIVE but believe the only thing you receive is the Holy Spirit now. John 3:16 Read it. For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever BELIEVEITH, not receiveith, you already got JESUS you have to now believe to be saved. It is hard enough to get people to believe that they are sinners by ADAM much Harder to get people to believe that Jesus did what he did. ARE YOU SAVED? You are if you BELIEVED what took place 2000 years ago. Now the question about Babies. If they die at birth or as a young child, do they go to heaven by water baptism or not.
The water baptism ain't got nothng to do with them going to heaven or not, eternal security either. They will go to heaven if they die because that child didn't have the chance. Public baptism is not just a show to the world that you have changed and are now a Christian. We make it sound like we are getting baptised for the world (PEOPLE) when it is really a personal thing for the individual who is getting baptised. We as an individual are telling the LORD that by our show of baptism, not to people, but GOD,
that we are going to follow his son Jesus Christ in his footsteps. When we go under the water it symbolizies the death in that Christ died for us and that we should die also to ADAM's sin nature. When we come out of the water to symbolize not only to God but Our selves that we are a new creature. That old adam I buried (SYMBOLIZING) in the water and now I come out representing, putting on christ. Does water baptism save you, No.
The thief on the cross was never baptised.
Every person on earth has to make a decision if he or she will put on christ in other words BELIEVE that christ died and take up your cross and live for what you believe.
Baby baptism is not going to do it. Those babies that die did'nt have the chance to choose and God understands that but people who get to the age of understanding do.

 

Whosoever, that is nice that that is what Baptism is for you; how it symbolizes your belief, etc.

Luckily for us, it is so much more for God. It is one way He imparts His Grace to us. It is one way He sends the Holy Spirit to us. Don't be so self-centered to think that Baptism is your work; it is God's.

 

Believing in God at all is God's work. So what's your point?

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sir Ed:
Tuor, you do. They aren't anymore capable of "making a decision for Jesus" than an infant.

Adam, I take it you disagree with Holy Scripture where it says in 1 Peter: <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

On the contrary, I disagree with your blatent disregard for taking scripture in context.

Equally as much I could say to you that woman are SAVED by giving birth to children. After all that is what scripture says right?

UNP,
Adam

 

"I think you need to reread that very carefully. Because it does not say what you think it says."

Okay....yep, it does say what I thought it said.

UNP
Adam

 

Tuor, bingo!

Adam, I'm not trying to convince you of anything. It has become painfully clear on this board that Baptists generally put their church's doctrine above Scripture. Furthermore, you as a convert are worse than most. Nothing, I mean nothing, can disagree with the teachings of the church YOU CHOSE. Thats psychologically understandable.

My whole goal on here is merely to explain my beliefs and correct falsehoods about the church I am a member of; not to convince people they are wrong. Unfortunately, I forget that goal sometimes.

Peace be with you.

 

The big problem on this thread concerning infant baptism is that the two sides have different understandings of what baptism does, and of how salvation comes to a person. The Baptists seem to think that the Lutherans and Catholics are saying that, by baptism, the infant is "saved" and never has to make his own decision for Christ.

I'm not sure on Lutheran understanding on this. But the Catholic view is that baptism gives the child sanctifying grace, a share in Christ's own life. The child doesn't have to make a decision on his own in order to receive sanctifying grace. When he reaches the age of reason, he will have to make his own decision for Christ. If he rejects Christ, he will lose sanctifying grace. If he commits to Christ, he will retain sanctifying grace.

Catholics do not believe in assurance of final salvation upon commiting to Christ. We do believe that salvation is union with Jesus Christ, so He lives in us and we in Him, and we become like Him. So, when we stand before God on the day of judgment, God sees Christ formed in us. This means that salvation is a progressive state of on-going conversion. All my life I have to be becoming more and more Christlike by His grace working in me.

More is expected of us Catholics.

Pauline

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>no where does it say teach and then baptised"

Check out Matthew 28:18-20 - Disciples are to be taught before they were baptized and afterwards. In other words: preach the gospel; those who are saved are baptized; and disciple them into the church.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Maybe i should be more specific take off the blinders of the Baptist church and reread it.

"go therefore and make disciples of all nations" ok he has assigned a task but how do we do it?

"baptising them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of The Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe..." so thats how we are supposed to make disciples. It doesn't say teach first then baptize. It can be argued that the order suggests baptism first but that involves reading too much into the text.

 

Pauline,

I just listened to a Baptist preacher give his testimony. He grew up in a Catholic family and went to Catholic schools, anyway during his childhood his mother killed herself by taking a bunch of sleeping pills. The first thing he did when he found her was took her to the couch, got a glass of water and poured it over her head. He said all he could think was what he had been taught and that was he needed to baptize her. Obviously he baptized her because he thought it would bring her salvation, but according to what you are saying he would have had no reason to do so because her salvation would have already been determined when she didn't follow Christ later on in her life after she got to the appropriate age. Why then would he baptize her? Also you say Catholics do not know if they are going to heaven or not before they die, yet the book of 1 John says that these things are written so we may know that we have eternal life.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sir Ed:
Tuor, bingo!

Adam, I'm not trying to convince you of anything. It has become painfully clear on this board that Baptists generally put their church's doctrine above Scripture. Furthermore, you as a convert are worse than most. Nothing, I mean nothing, can disagree with the teachings of the church YOU CHOSE. Thats psychologically understandable.

My whole goal on here is merely to explain my beliefs and correct falsehoods about the church I am a member of; not to convince people they are wrong. Unfortunately, I forget that goal sometimes.

Peace be with you.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I admit, I'm confused as to where this came from. I thought we were talking about baptism here? Instead you have choosen to ignore my question and tell me that I put church doctrine above scripture. Which of course, isn't true. What's going on?

UNP
Adam