"Saved by Faith Alone"- Lutheran Church Visit

If you don't agree with JJump's exegesis, that's one thing, but why the condescending attitute? What do YOU believe it means? (And before you start to exegete the book of James, go through Galatians first)

 

I see you are reverting back to your immature sarcasim. And you were doing so well. Hopefully you will snap out of this funk as well and then we can continue to discuss Scripture.

 

Lutheran's use two different definitions of faith. Saving faith is fiducia and assensus is the outward expression of saving faith.

Admittedly, it does get kinda confusing.

 

this is a true convert

"But he that received the seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some and hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty"
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this is a false convert

"When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful."

 

Gekko, you're mixing two different messages here: The gospel of salvation and the gospel of the Kingdom.

(I'm assuming that by "convert", you're talking about someone who is spiritually saved.)

 

why is it HoG that you think there's only one interpretation to each scripture? that there's only one application for the scripture?

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i was simply addressing the fact that J.Jump didnt agree with "if your faith is genuine, it will produce good works"
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And you seem to be applying that to how to be saved.

I could be mis-reading your statement, but that's what it seems to me. If that's not what you're saying, I apologize for misunderstanding.

 

no im not trying to apply that how to be saved.

all im saying is that if your faith is genuine - the good fruit will show.

 

Not all Lutheran bodies allow the ordination of women. For instance, the Lutheran Chuch - Missouri Synod, which is the second largest Lutheran body in the US, does not ordain women.

 

Gekko it seems as though you are saying that the first three people in that story are unsaved. Would that be a correct assumption?

 

Gekko, I guess the reason I misunderstood is because you are referencing the parable of the soils, which is referencing four different kinds of Christians, and I thought you were applying it to salvation.

Sorry about that.

 

you are very sneeky J.Jump.
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the first three people i believe represent people who are not christians.
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have i evaded what answer you wanted yet?

 

Well I wasn't trying to be sneaky. I just asked a question.

And you gave the answer just as I suspected you would. The problem is you say made this statement:

But then you say that persons 1-3 aren't saved and only person 4 is. So while you weren't trying to tie the message into salvation you have by default, becuase you say that only those that show good works are saved.

Again the context of the message tells us that only saved people are in view, becuase works are in view. Only saved people even have the opportunity to do good works.

 

The answer to your question, and many others, can be found at the "Frequently Asked Questions" section of the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod website at the following link:

http://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=6477

But the short answer is:

Hope this helps.

 

no im not trying to apply that how to be saved.

notice i said "how to be saved" not trying to apply it to "how to be saved"

yeeess. because the 4th person is soundly saved - has genuine faith. the others are false. they are within the church. they are posers.

doesnt say that at all. sorry.

have i ever said that good works saves ya? no.
would a genuinly saved person with genuine faith - a seed sown on good soil - would they have anything other then good fruit?

some a hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold. of what? good fruits.

sure a couple bad fruits are produced - but they are noticed RIGHT away because they are the odd-fruits out. and therefore cut-off and thrown to the fire.

 

Works are works are works, whether you apply them to get saved, to stay saved, or to prove you're saved.

Should we produce good fruit? Certainly. But, many don't.

Praise God our salvation is not based on our ability to produce good works; it's based upon the perfect work completed by Jesus on the cross.

 

yeah.
but our ability to produce good fruit is based on our salvation.

 

And no one has argued against this point. If you are eternally saved, you are capable of producing good fruit, but that doesn't mean you will. And it doesn't mean if you don't you aren't saved.

That's what you are saying of the first three people. You say because they aren't producing fruit that they aren't saved. There is nothing in the text that say they are incapable of producing fruit, they just don't because of other reasons.

Their seed is stolen, or they have a shallow understanding or they get caught up in the cares of this world. That's amazing that it goes right in hand with what the Christian is to overcome. We are to overcome Satan, the flesh and the world. And we see these three people being overcome by one of these three scenarios.

They are all saved people, because works are NEVER in view when eternal salvation is in view.