Saved by Grace not of works !

I embrace salvation by grace through faith and not of works because works is the law and faith is believing.

You reject the scripture's definition of works and insert a generic definition. But Paul is very clear as to what he means by "works". He means "the law."

 

And more specifically Ceremonial law. Jesus got on people for breaking the heart of the law which would require taking care of parents but people used ceremonial law to avoid this responsibility. What would fall under this grouping of law would be things like circumsision.

 

I introduced my post with comments on the 1 John text you presented to define "faith" as a work. I responded by analyzing the context to show it referred to saved people and to "faithfulness" not justification by faith.

I responded by giving two explicit texts that contradicted your assertion that faith at the point of regeneration/justification was "of works" but clearly "of grace" (Eph. 2:8; Rom. 4:16.

In response you completely ignore those texts and demand I address something completely different, the TIME of Abraham's justification.

Why should I respond to your NEW topic (time of Abraham's justification) when you completely ignore the texts and evidence I placed before you??? If that is the way this game is played then you can play it by yourself.

My take is that you are not objective or serious in discussing anything but rather you have an axe to grind and so l will simply leave and let you grind your axe.

 

Ok. By your logic;

Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.​

By your logic, Jesus is telling people they can worship and love ANY god (the Greek and Roman Gods will suffice), and also their Roman lords.

You see the word for Lord is kyrios :
1) he to whom a person or thing belongs, about which he has power of deciding; master, lord
a) the possessor and disposer of a thing
1) the owner; one who has control of the person, the master
2) in the state: the sovereign, prince, chief, the Roman emperor
b) is a title of honour expressive of respect and reverence, with which servants greet their master
c) this title is given to: God, the Messiah

Then the verse uses the word theos for god. This means:
1) a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities
2) the Godhead, trinity
a) God the Father, the first person in the trinity
b) Christ, the second person of the trinity
c) Holy Spirit, the third person in the trinity
3) spoken of the only and true God
a) refers to the things of God
b) his counsels, interests, things due to him
4) whatever can in any respect be likened unto God, or resemble him in any way
a) God's representative or viceregent
1) of magistrates and judges

So really according to your argument - Jesus is advocating worshiping any and all gods, godesses, and rulers, not just the Hebrew God - again, according to your logic.

Can you see what a bankrupt argument you are making? Clearly we need to let the Bible define it's own terms and not impose our own definition of "works". We MUST use the Bible's definition of works - which is "the law."

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works (ergon) of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works (ergon) of the law: for by the works (ergon) of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Rom 9:32 Wherefore? Because [they sought it] not by faith, but as it were by the works (ergon) of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works (ergon) of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Gal 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, [doeth he it] by the works (ergon) of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works (ergon) of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, [it is] evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

Rom 3:27 Where [is] boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works (ergon)? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds (ergon) of the law.​

 

Man cannot save himself alone but Jesus is saying in this next verse that anybody through no fault of their own that doesn't hear the Gospel can be saved by this ;the Words of Jesus:-- "Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?" And the King will answer them, "Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me" (Matt. 25:37-40).

 

In my post of #48, no other Church does this more than does the Catholic Church

 

You teach that faith is a work. That is a false gospel.

I showed you over 2 dozen verses that directly and explicitly refute your position, but you hold to it dogmatically.

You refuse to acknowledge that Paul means "works of the law" when he says "works" which is a point I have demonstrated beyond all doubt.

When you post scripture that says "not by works" I read "not by works of the law" because it is demonstrable that this is what Paul means. While MOST of the time, Paul says "works of the law" or "works of righteousness", you pick the one or two verses where he simply shortens it to "works" and then give the definition of the Greek word for works which means "anything you do." But I have soundly refuted this point. I have demonstrated beyond a shadow of a doubt that when Paul says "works" he means "works of the law" with dozens of scriptures.

I showed you how I could similarly cherry pick words (I used the words of Jesus for example) and since Jesus didn't qualify them (love the Lord your God), it could, by your logic, mean that Jesus was saying to worship any god. But we know by the context of Jesus' life, work, and ministry, as well as the body of Jesus' words we have what Jesus' meant by Lord and God. Similarly, we know by the body of the apostle Paul's work what he specifically means when he uses the generic term "works" in Ephesians 2.


But lets look at the truth of why you refuse to acknowledge the clear teachings of scripture, SBM. You hold to some form of Calvinism for the same reason most Calvinists do - because it lets you be a lazy Christian. If God "does" everything for you, then you are free from the responsibilities of the Christian life and walk.

 

The Catholic Church has never taught a doctrine of "works righteousness," that through good works one can earn salvation
and, in fact, has constantly condemned the notion that men can earn or merit salvation. Catholic soteriology (salvation theology) is rooted in apostolic Tradition and Scripture and says that it is only by God's grace--completely unmerited by works--that one is saved.

The Church teaches that it's God's grace from beginning to end which justifies, sanctifies, and saves us. As Paul explains in Philippians 2:13, "God is the one, who, for his good purpose, works in you both to desire and to work."

Notice that Paul's words presuppose that the faithful Christian is not just desiring to be righteous, but is actively working toward it. This is the second half of the justification equation, and Protestants either miss or ignore it.

James 2:17 reminds us that "faith of itself, if it does not have work, is dead." In verse 24 James says, "See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone." And later: "For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead" (2:26).

The Council of Trent harmonizes the necessity of grace and works: "If anyone says that man can be justified before God by his own works, whether done by his own natural powers or by the teaching of the Law, without divine grace through Jesus Christ, let him be anathema" (Session 6; can. 1).

The Council fathers continued by saying, "If anyone says that the sinner is justified by faith alone, meaning that nothing else is required to cooperate in order to obtain the grace of justification and that it is not in any way necessary that he be prepared and disposed by the action of his own will, let him be anathema" (Session 6: can. 9).

By the way, "let him be anathema" means "let him be excommunicated," not "let him be cursed to hell." The phrase was used in conciliar documents in a technical, theological sense, not in the same sense as the word "anathema" is found in Scripture. Don't let "Bible Christians" throw you for a loop on this one.

So, far from teaching a doctrine of "works righteousness" (that would be Pelagianism, which was condemned at the Council of Carthage in A.D. 418), the Catholic Church teaches the true, biblical doctrine of justification.

 

I'm sorry my friend if you detest the scripture. I teach the Bible. The Bible defines works as "works of the law" and faith as "believing the gospel." Why do I teach this? Because that is what the Bible says. If the Bible said that faith was a work, or that works means "anything you do" I would teach this. But the Bible is abundantly clear that we are saved by grace through believing in the gospel.

 

:sleep:
SBM, I'm done trying to get through to you. Indulging your delusions is a waste of time.

 

I have given you something on the order of 3 or 4 dozen scriptures that explicitly refute your position, but you refuse to deal with them, or look at this situation logically or rationally. Your position is completely irrational.

Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, [even] in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.​

Clearly, the scripture sets up an IF... THEN statement for salvation. IF we do xyz, then God does abc. That is the very definition of a covenant. The apostle Paul in Galatians 4:24 says there are two covenants - the Law (works) and the Promise (faith) whereby men can be righteous. Righteousness is required for salvation. Before you claim this to be works-based salvation, let me assure you that Works does not mean "anything you do." Works means "following the law". And YES, works can save you - unless you have disobeyed even one point of the law... if so, you are disqualified from righteousness by the law (works). At that point, only faith (believing the gospel) can save you (make you righteous) from death. Only by believing the gospel can you fulfill the other covenant whereby you can be made righteous. The Greek definition of ergon is irrelevant. Paul is clear in that the word ergon is used to describe the covenant of righteousness from following the law, not to be used generically as you are trying to do by parroting the definition of ergon.

IF you use your unbiblical definition of works (meaning anything you do) then YES, faith is a "work." But if you use the Bible's definition of "works" (meaning following the law) then you can see that faith is not a work, but rather believing the gospel (faith) is the other covenant whereby man can be righteous without works the law. YOU CANNOT USE THE DICTIONARY DEFINITION OF ERGON! This is not the intention of Paul, and scripture (which I have provided you with an abundance of in previous posts) supports this argument.

Rom 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

Act 8:37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

Jhn 10:38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father [is] in me, and I in him.

Jhn 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am [he], ye shall die in your sins.

Isa 7:9 And the head of Ephraim [is] Samaria, and the head of Samaria [is] Remaliah's son. If ye will not believe, surely ye shall not be established.​

One last thing -- grace comes through righteousness. Righteousness is the power of Grace to give eternal life.

Rom 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.​

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Quote:
Originally Posted by savedbymercy
Faith is a work, ..


Answer these questions in the order I give them to you please!

1. Is "grace" of works without ceasing to be grace? - Rom. 11:6

2. Is "works" of grace without ceasing to be works? - Rom. 11:6

3. Is "faith" said to be "of grace"? - Rom. 4:16

 

By faith works are produced, that is the "work OF faith" not that "work IS faith."

Even though you are misinterpreting and misapplying these texts, let's say you are right, faith is a commandment, a law.

Just because something is a duty does not mean you have the ability to do it! Look at Romans 7:18-19 where Paul says he has the willingness to do something but lack the ability to do it and what he lacks the ability to do is what the law commands.

Now, is faith "of grace" (Rom. 4:16) or has Paul told a lie here?