Saved by Grace not of works !

Well it is nice for a change to have a complete response from you.

However, since you have proven that the works of a child of God are all "of grace" and we are "saved by grace" and thus salvation is "of grace" equally as "works" or "of grace." Then how do you define Romans 11:6?

Rom. 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

It seems that you are saying the very reverse. That works are "of grace" equally as salvation is "of grace" because what is "of grace" is "of grace."

Hence, the reverse would be just as true would it not? If works can be "of grace" then why cannot Salvation be "of works" since "works" is "of grace"????

 

This is your error. The Catholic Catechism teaches clearly that Baptism = the new birth, without which one cannot be saved. Without the work of baptism the Catholic Church teaches there is no salvation. Clearly the RCC teaches a works-based salvation. It is not of grace but of works, according to the RCC.

 

Then if it must be one or the other but not both then is "faith....by grace" or by works? If you say faith is of works then what does Paul mean when he says faith is "by grace"? Does "by grace" mean "by works"? And if it be "by grace" then is it "of works"?

Rom. 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed;

 

Au contraire! The RCC is all about grace. Everything is by the Grace of God. Read the EFCs like Augustine.

WM

 

You quoted me and then disagreed with me. Did you understand what I said? There is no grace in baptism. It is a work. It is a step of obedience according to the command of Christ AFTER salvation. What does it DO for a person? It gets them wet, and that is all. It is purely symbolic in nature. It does not impart grace, as the RCC teaches. There is no grace in baptism. It is a work. And works do not save.

And yet the RCC equates baptism with the new birth. That is a heresy.

 

Calvinists say ‘faith’ and ‘believing’ is works. However, believing is like drinking water. In addition, if it is a work, it is the work required. Moreover, what kind of work is drinking?
Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?" Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent." John 6:28-29. Jesus says that believing is the work God requires.

For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free--and we were all given the one Spirit to drink. 1 Corinthians 12:13.

Calvinists say that the Holy Spirit caused them to believe without their knowing or wanting. However, we do not receive the Holy Spirit before Jesus saves us. We receive the Holy Spirit after we believe. Nowhere in the scriptures does it say that we receive the Holy Spirit before we believe, nor does it say that we receive the Holy Spirit to cause us to believe.

Calvinists say we all hate God and are His enemy, and in this state of hate, God gives us the Holy Spirit to cause us to believe. However, we do not receive God's Spirit if we hate God! We receive God and Jesus' Spirit when we love God and obey. John 14:23 Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.

Calvinists say we have to do nothing, not even believe. That is not biblical. The bible clearly and plainly says that we have to believe. We have to obey.

We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him. Acts 5:32. God gives the Holy Spirit to those who obey.

"Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame." Romans 10:11. Is trust a work?

"Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." Romans 10:13. Is calling a work?

Calvinists say we have to do nothing at all, not even believe. That is nonsensical, to say the least. We have to do that which God says to do!

Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled. Matthew 5:6.

Is hunger and thirst a work? To hunger and to thirst is a condition of a person’s heart. If it is as Calvinists say, that our heart has nothing to do with whether or not we have salvation, then what does it matter if we hunger or thirst?


Paul tells us that we too can be hardened! How can we be hardened if our hearts are hard from the beginning? Hebrews 3:13, we are told to exhort one another daily lest any of you be hardened.

Calvinists say that none of us has the capability to believe and that we are totally depraved, if that is so, then why does the bible say God searches our hearts? What is God searching for if all are totally depraved? Why search any one’s heart if it is so dark and evil?

1 Chronicles 28:9 "And you, my son Solomon, acknowledge the God of your father, and serve him with wholehearted devotion and with a willing mind, for the LORD searches every heart and understands every motive behind the thoughts. If you seek him, he will be found by you; but if you forsake him, he will reject you forever.

2 Chronicles 16:9 For the eyes of the LORD range throughout the earth to strengthen those whose hearts are fully committed to him.

Psalm 7:9 O righteous God, who searches minds and hearts, bring to an end the violence of the wicked and make the righteous secure.

Proverbs 20:27 The lamp of the LORD searches the spirit of a man; it searches out his inmost being.

John 4:23 yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks.

God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us, see Acts 15:8. AGAIN, IF OUR HEARTS OUR ONLY EVIL, WHAT DID GOD SEE IN THEIR HEART THAT HE GAVE HIS SPIRIT TO THEM? WHAT DID GOD SEE IN THEIR HEART THAT HE ACCEPTED THEM?

Calvinists teach that all are totally depraved. Again, what is God searching us for if all are totally depraved anyways?

Jesus is our Sabbath rest. God does not save us by the works of the law. The Jews at one time had to be circumcised. The first covenant had regulations for worship and also an earthly sanctuary. They are only a matter of food and drink and various ceremonial washings---external regulations.
The Jews had to have religious festivals, New Moon celebrations, and Sabbath days. The Jews had the works of the law, even if they did not have faith, if they did the works of the law they had a relationship with God, they were God’s people.
Colossians 2:14 having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross.
Hebrews 8:13 By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.

When Christ came as high priest, he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not man-made, He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption. The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean.


Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law. Galatians 3:23-25.
Even when those belonging to God could not work, they could not do any work on the Sabbath day, Jesus said it was UNLAWFUL to do evil on the Sabbath, and it is LAWFUL to do good on the Sabbath. See Luke 6:9.
God saves us now by faith only. It does not mean we do not have to be good! It does not mean we do not have to do right! Where do you get that stop cheating on your wife is a work?! Where do you get that repenting of stealing and to stop stealing is a work?!
Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near. THAT is the words of Jesus Christ. See Matthew 4:17.

 

That is not what the verse means. Break it down:

(Eph 2:8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
(Eph 2:9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.

What is the primary subject and verb here?
--"you are saved." Everything revolves around that simple statement.

You are saved.
How? You are saved "by grace"
By what means? You are saved "through faith."
You are not saved of yourselves.
Salvation is the gift of God.
Salvation is not of works, so that no man can boast of it.

In no way does this verse teach that faith is a gift of God; rather it teaches that salvation is the gift of God.

 

Jesus is our Sabbath rest. It was against the law to work on the Sabbath. It was NOT against the law to do good on the Sabbath, it is against the law to sin on the Sabbath.

We are saved by faith, and not of by works, do you not see how Jesus is our Sabbath rest, and how the Sabbath is a shadow of the things that were to come, Jesus Christ. However, we repent of our sins when we are saved; repenting of sins is not a work! Again, it was NOT unlawful to do good on the Sabbath, but it was WRONG to sin on the Sabbath.

When someone tells you that you are saved by faith and not by works, that means we are not saved by circumcision; or eating or drinking certain food; or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day; various ceremonial washings--external regulations, or by sin offerings. God nailed those things to the cross. We do not have to do those things to be saved. However, not all of the Old Testament laws were things we no longer have to obey.

 

Wrong.

Wrong again. Let's look at the text.

Romans 4:3-5 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
--Righteousness was imputed to Abraham because of faith (belief). On the basis of his faith he was counted righteous before God. That was the only basis--faith.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
--To him that works is the reward, not of grace but of debt. There is not a hint of faith here. It is work in contrast to faith. When you work at your occupation you look forward for your wage at the end of the month. You don't look for a gift from the employer. You want what you deserve--what you worked for--your wage. Works deserve a reward. Labor deserves a wage, a reward. It is not grace, a gift, but rather a wage or reward.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
--To him that works not but simply believes or has faith on Christ, the One that justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Faith is not a work. Faith does not work. To him that does absolutely no work, but simply believes or has faith, that is the one that God justifies! Faith is not a work. Paul explains this very carefully.

 

James 2:20 You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? 21 Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

 

It is not a work to obey God. When someone tells you that you are saved by faith and not by works, that means we are not saved by circumcision; or eating or drinking certain food; or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day; various ceremonial washings--external regulations, or by sin offerings. God nailed those things to the cross. We do not have to do those things to be saved. However, we do have to do the things Jesus teaches.

 

The only thing proved in post 74 is a very good demonstration of taking Scripture out of context and twisting the meaning to make it mean something it doesn't mean.

I have never seen such a distortion of Romans 4:4 in my life. You claim it says the opposite of what the verse actually teaches, not bothering to give the context so the reader can actually see that you are twisting and wrenching the verse so badly that it is saying the direct opposite of what you claim.

Psalm 14:1. "There is no god."
This is what you are doing in Romans 4:4. You are making it say the opposite of what it teaches. BTW. Psalm 14:1 does say "there is no god." You do believe that don't you?