Saved Catholics?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Soulman, Jul 15, 2006.

  1. Soulman

    Soulman
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2004
    Messages:
    1,088
    Likes Received:
    0
    Does anyone believe that if you are a practising Catholic and believe the doctrins of the church that you can be saved?

    If so, Would God bless you if you decided to stay and remain actively a Catholic?
     
  2. webdog

    webdog
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2005
    Messages:
    24,691
    Likes Received:
    0
    The key is "believe the doctrine of the church". The simple answer to this is no. The church teaches a works salvation (not to mention idolatry) in stark contrast to Eph. 2:8-9. Having said that, I do believe there are saved catholics. Do I think God will bless them still being catholic in light of knowing the truth? I doubt it. I know some saved catholics believe they are "missionaries" within the catholic church, but believers still need to be a part of a solid Bible based church. There are ways to be "missionaries" within the catholic community without still going along with their false doctrine.
     
  3. tinytim

    tinytim
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/tim2.jpg>

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2003
    Messages:
    11,250
    Likes Received:
    0
    I second webdog's post.
     
  4. ituttut

    ituttut
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2004
    Messages:
    2,674
    Likes Received:
    0
    They believe the "great commission"
     
  5. webdog

    webdog
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2005
    Messages:
    24,691
    Likes Received:
    0
    So do the Jehovah's Witnesses.
     
  6. saturneptune

    saturneptune
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2006
    Messages:
    13,977
    Likes Received:
    0
    One is on thin ice to play guessing games about another person's salvation, since the last time I checked, we as humans are unable to examine the heart of others. To say "all practicing Catholics are not saved" is an absolute statement that has no proof whatsoever. One might say "there is a high probability that practicing Catholics are not saved."

    As far as the "works salvation" and the "idolitry", yes that is true. It is practiced in the Catholic church. However, when another person says they are not saved because they do this and that, isnt that person in fact basing salvation on a do or a dont, the exact thing that theyCatholics are accused of doing.

    I am thankful every day that I am in a Baptist church, which is where God wants me. That said, there will be lots of Baptists in hell, maybe some Catholics in heaven.

    One final question, if practicing Catholics are lost, which denominations are saved? If one has of a mindset to even think Baptists have an exclusive hold on salvation, it is hard to imagine how that kind of thinking could be in God's will, or if there is any hope for that person
     
  7. ituttut

    ituttut
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2004
    Messages:
    2,674
    Likes Received:
    0
    Does our denomination preach and teach this?
     
  8. ituttut

    ituttut
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2004
    Messages:
    2,674
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hello Soulman. I thought this first post of mine went through, but see it didn't, so posting again.

    We should think very carefully on this matter. The gospel they believe is the gospel laid down by Peter, and not Paul. Catholic's are Pentecostal's of which Jewish church Peter was appointed to oversee. We see James took over the dieing church, for the "kingdom did not come". It's like the song containing "Yesterday is dead and gone, and tomorrows out of sight, it's so sad to be alone, Help me make it through the night". That gospel of the "great commission" of yesterday is dead, and that "kingdom" preached is way out of sight. Today we are in the light but the night (tribulation) is coming when that gospel will help those through the night.

    I am unable to judge those members of that church for when I do I find my church believes so much of what they tell us to believe. How about Christmas, Easter, and now we have learned to speak their language, and so very many believe their Good Friday. I've said for years what would come next, not counting our "lucky charm" to show we are Christian, the ear rings, bracelets, and pins, and necklaces of the Cross. Some can't even leave their house without it their "security blanket".

    What is that which has come that has always been rejected by Baptist's of the past? Lent a new 40 Holy days for us to worship. We are turning back to those "dead" days of Israel. Forty is one of her numbers. When we see the number 40 given to us to adhere to, it should make the hair on our arms stand on end, if we are told to believe in that magical number.

    Goliath challenged Israel for 40 days. Israel was in divine testing and on probation wandering around in the wilderness. Wasn't Moses on that mountain 40 days and nights then found Israel worshipping a golden calf. How about the 40 days of tempting of Jesus by Satan? Can't we understand we are really no different from the Catholic church, for we have now come to believe those things, which are dead. Forty goes back even before the Old Testament, and is not to be attached to we today. If it is then it is administered by those of the Old Testament, or of things to come in the tribulation, or the millennium.


    Don't we say the same prayer over, and over, and over again, just as they. They say it as that is what those that were going into the "tribulation" were told to pray. The prayer told them to go directly to the Father, without going through Him. Can we do that? We are to read with understanding. If that prayer is for us (we picked it up long ago from the Catholic church) then we are to obey Jesus while He was on this earth. Do any that rely on this prayer do as they are told in the verses that follow in Matthew 6:13-34?

    I'm not sure I can condemn this "church" that my denomination follows.
     
  9. Soulman

    Soulman
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2004
    Messages:
    1,088
    Likes Received:
    0
    Quote by Ituttut:"The gospel they believe is the gospel laid down by Peter, and not Paul. Catholic's are Pentecostal's of which Jewish church Peter was appointed to oversee."Quote

    By who was Peter appointed? Are you referring to " Thou art Peter and upon this Rock I will build my church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it?

    Not to get overly into the greek, we must in order to get the real meaning of that verse. "Thou art Peter". Peter is Petros in the greek meaning little or lively stone. "Upon this Rock" Through the entire bible Rock has been used to denote God or Jesus. What the verse is actually saying is " Thou art small or lively stone(Peter) and upon this Rock(Jesus) I will build my church. The catholics have completely taken the verse out of context to justify the pope which is the Vicar of Christ on earth and considered sinless. The bible says all have sinned.

    Quote:"We see James took over the dieing church, for the "kingdom did not come". It's like the song containing "Yesterday is dead and gone, and tomorrows out of sight, it's so sad to be alone, Help me make it through the night". That gospel of the "great commission" of yesterday is dead, and that "kingdom" preached is way out of sight. Today we are in the light but the night (tribulation) is coming when that gospel will help those through the night." Quote

    Huh?

    Quote:"How about Christmas, Easter, and now we have learned to speak their language, and so very many believe their Good Friday. I've said for years what would come next, not counting our "lucky charm" to show we are Christian, the ear rings, bracelets, and pins, and necklaces of the Cross. Some can't even leave their house without it their "security blanket". Quote

    What does any of this have to do with what the bible says. If you are in a church that believes in Good Friday, you need to run. Catholics use ear rings, bracelets, and pins, and necklaces of the Cross as holy artifacts often having them blessed by the priest and made holy. Christians use them as mere reminders.

    Quote: Lent a new 40 Holy days for us to worship."Quote

    Lent is not observed by any Baptist churches I know of. Lent is a period of 40 days where a catholic gives up a habit or a considered sin such as smoking. At the end of the 40 days the habit or sin is usually resumed.

    Quote:Can't we understand we are really no different from the Catholic church, for we have now come to believe those things, which are dead." Quote

    We are totally different than the catholics but I think I see where you are going with this. You seem to think we mock catholicisim. You are wrong! They are the Whore of Babylon mentioned in the book of Revelation drunk on the blood of the saints. They mock christianity! I say they are the whore because during the dark ages that denomination alone killed 59 million christians in the name of Christ. They are the false bride of christ and they mock us. They say alot of the right things but like the Mormons and Jahovah's Witnesses they have a false christ.

    Quote: I'm not sure I can condemn this "church" that my denomination follows. Quote

    Then my friend it is obvious you don't understand catholicisim or the bible.
     
  10. webdog

    webdog
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2005
    Messages:
    24,691
    Likes Received:
    0
    I don't follow:confused:
     
  11. ituttut

    ituttut
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2004
    Messages:
    2,674
    Likes Received:
    0
    I was wondering if your "denominational" Baptist church preaches the message of the "great commission". I have never been able to understand why they continually reference the "great commission" for in it is what the Catholic church and the Jehovah' Witnesses claim they must believe and do to be saved.

    I was wondering if your Baptist church believe we are to believe the "great commission"?
     
  12. ituttut

    ituttut
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2004
    Messages:
    2,674
    Likes Received:
    0
    Understand this Soulman and we do agree on that point. But I was referring to the "foundation (gospel) that Peter laid down for the Jew to build on the foundation of Jesus Christ"; and to the "foundation (gospel) that Paul laid down for us today to build on the foundation of Christ Jesus. Paul tells us he will not build on another man's (Peter's) foundation. Paul is laying a New foundation on the foundation of our Lord Jesus Christ of the Body of Christ Church, which was not before known.

    The Catholic's and others are trying to live on the "foundation" laid down by Peter. That Gospel is to "repent and be baptized for the remission of sins", and this is what that church practices. They actually preach and believe the gospel of Peter, so it is easy to understand why they are of the gospel of the Jewish Pentecostal church for the "great commission" is to be preached to the whole world. And it will be, but not until after we are raptured.

    We Baptist and others are trying to live on the "foundation" laid down by Paul. This gospel for today is to "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved", and this is what our denomination practices. So why do we as Baptist's believe we are to also preach the "great commission" when it has been replaced by the "grace commission". We preach and teach salvation by "believing on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, without baptism being a part of our salvation, yet we cling to and also preach the "great commission", without its useless baggage?
    That analogy of comparison did not work. The gospel of the "kingdom was at hand" came close to starting at Pentecost, but it did not come. The Pentecostal church began dieing after Israel was cut-off at the stoning of Stephen. So that Gospel of the Jewish Pentecostal church died out. The "kingdom" is now out of sight, and should be out of mind, for we are to look for the "Rapture". That "kingdom" cannot come until after we are "caught up to Him in the air", and the tribulation period begins. Hope this is clearer.
    You are very fortunate to have found a Baptist church that will not condone "Good Friday" to be observed or recognized. This is not just one church. The "Baptist Standard" published for the Baptist General Convention of Texas, speaks of this, as well as Lent. Growing up in a SBC church I had never heard of "good Friday" until my last year of Jr. High. My church at that time didn't believe in Good Friday, knowing this comes from Catholic error. The Baptist church I now go to (supporting both SBC and BGC) have those that speak of Good Friday. Many Baptist churches seem to be going back to their "roots" of the Catholic church.
    Thanks again for the input, but I know what Lent is. But both of these practices are entering into some Baptist churches, and widely published papers.
    I understand where you are coming from, but that is really not my point. And you could be wrong on who the "whore of Babylon is. I can't understand why we "mimic" that church, picking up her bad habits. In early American history it was illegal to observe Christmas. In the 1800's the Presbyterian, Methodist, and Baptist church did not observe Christmas. Christmas or Easter was unknown to any of the Apostles, or Christians. As you most likely know both of these Holy Pagan Days were brought into the Catholic church. So yes, I say we "mimic" them, and as time goes own we are seeing more of practices being accepted into our church.
    If I condemn the Catholic church, then I would be condemning the Baptist denomination, for we believe pagan worship just as they, and most all Baptist churches believe in the "great commission", the foundation that the Pentecostal church is built upon. I know my Bible and that is the reason I can't understand why the connection between the Catholic church, and all of her "children". Catholicism is wrong, so why do we go along with them and the world in their worship habits?
     
  13. Soulman

    Soulman
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2004
    Messages:
    1,088
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ituttut,
    No disrespect intended. On the points I refuted you state alot of Baptist churches are crossing the lines to catholic dogma and practices. I will say that there may be similarities because so mant baptists came out of catholicisim so some church polity may be mirrored. You have a Southern baptist background you say. I am an Independant fundamental baptist from New England. There are as many stripes of baptists as there seem to be denominations. So you are right about alot of baptists believing in lent and good friday. Mine isn't one of them. If you seek the truth you will find it. If you find it we must make the appropriate changes to get into a church that loves the truth. Catholicisim is based on the angel of light(Satan). It has a different Christ as do the Mormons and J.W.s'. If you trust that Christ and not the Christ of the bible, The one that died ONCE for all, you cannot be saved.
     
  14. ituttut

    ituttut
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2004
    Messages:
    2,674
    Likes Received:
    0
    Thanks for your kind words, and no disrespect intended from this end. You have said it - trust Christ the only begotten Son of God.

    Whether Baptist, Catholic, Church of Christ, Methodist, or what ever denomination, if we believe on the Lord Jesus Christ for our salvation, we will be saved. He cannot deny himself, for our salvation is of grace, but no rewards will be handed out for worshipping Him on the birthday that idols are worshipped or carrying around trinkets made by man for religious purposes.
     
  15. mozier

    mozier
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2003
    Messages:
    425
    Likes Received:
    0
    If a Catholic is truly saved, then the Holy Spirit will lead him or her out of the Roman Catholic Institution.

    God has this to say about those who think they can stay Catholic and yet be saved: "Come out of her, my people."
     
  16. ituttut

    ituttut
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2004
    Messages:
    2,674
    Likes Received:
    0
    Can we positively identify "Her" to be the Catholic church?


    Jesus plainly tells us He came only for His own, i.e. His people. We are not that nation and God is not dealing with His nation today but reconciling in His Grace the whole world unto Himself, of those that "believe on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ for their salvation". If it be Catholic so be it, and if it be Baptist so be it. We are saved because He was faithful, and we come through Him.

    Your quote "Come out of her, my people", applies only to HIS people, the nation of Israel. God only asked and made "covenant" with those out of Jacob, those 12 Patriarchs. And He will again deal with them. You possibly are using your reference of "Come out of her, my people" as seen in Revelation 18:4. If you are using Revelation 18 to condemn the Catholic and being Babylon, could you perhaps be wrong? We know God is coming in His great wrath to deal with His people, the nation's, and Satan. Can we read Amos 3:1-2 and not understand what is being said? "Hear this word that the Lord hath spoken against you, O children of Israel, against the whole family which I brought up from the land of Egypt, saying, 2. You only have I known of all the families of the earth: therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities".

    Tell me what you think of Revelation 18:23-24, " And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.
    24. And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth." We are to remember the Catholic church did not exist in the OT, and we must take such verses as Matthew 23:30-35 into account?
     
  17. Soulman

    Soulman
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2004
    Messages:
    1,088
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ituttut,
    Quote:"Jesus plainly tells us He came only for His own, i.e. His people. We are not that nation and God is not dealing with His nation today but reconciling in His Grace the whole world unto Himself, of those that "believe on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ for their salvation". If it be Catholic so be it, and if it be Baptist so be it. We are saved because He was faithful, and we come through Him."Quote

    You aren't seeing what keeps being repeated. Catholics have a false christ. He is NOT the same one. Trust him through faith, works or anything else and you perish!

    Read the book of Hebrews. The priesthood after the order of Melchisidek is everlasting in Christ. The only reason there were many Levitical priests was because they died and needed replacing. Christ replaced the last one by becoming a High priest for us. He has an unchanging priesthood as He lives forever. He is forever a priest after the order of Melchisidek. There are no others because He will never die, therefore needs no replacement.

    Men that claim to be priests today are liars. There is no other priest besides Christ in the new testament. Christ is the only priest that can forgive sin. He paid the penalty.

    The fake priests of catholicisim are sinners like the rest of us. They have no power or authority to forgive sin. Those that put their trust in their priest through confession and pennance are missing the boat. They are trying to work their way to heaven.

    The Pope claims to be the Vicar of Christ on earth. Or Christ on earth. The pope claims to be sinless and infallable. The bible says ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

    Their Christ is offered daily in the mass. It is otherwise known as the sacrifice of the mass. This is where the catholic doctrine of Transubstantiation comes from. The wine and wafer are miraculousely transformed into the ACTUAL blood and body of Christ and offered to God as a sacrifice for sin. This is done in thousands of catholic churches daily. Only by a miracle do the blood and body appear to us as bread and wine so we may consume it.

    This would be a most miserable existance for the Son of God to endure.

    The bible says Christ died ONCE for all. He said IT IS FINISHED!

    Catholic doctrine is a system of works leading no where close to salvation. When they do speak of the things that sound right and good they are speaking of the christ of catholicisim. When they say they are putting their trust in christ. it is not the one of the bible.Catholic doctrine is the cesspool of hell and those dear people that do find the truth are commanded to come out of her.

    The catholic church has always been called her and the mother church.
     
  18. Jimmy C

    Jimmy C
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    May 13, 2003
    Messages:
    1,250
    Likes Received:
    0
    +1 Saturn

    I know several Catholics who in my estimation are saved. I have had many conversations with them - their beliefs are orthodox, they believe in salvation by faith not works. In fact there is an evangelical arm of the Catholic church. It is very dangerous for us to judge others.
     
  19. IIJohn7

    IIJohn7
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2006
    Messages:
    22
    Likes Received:
    0
    I have a friend that grew up Baptist with me. Recently he converted to Catholic. Some people I know claim that because he did that, it means he's not saved. I dissagree. I understand exactly why he did it. Circomstances in his life have lead him to want more and more control over what goes on in his life. He has become very rigid and structured. One manifestation of this is his conversion to Catholasism (a very structured environment). Never have I heard him deny salvation through grace or anything else that would lead me to believe that he isn't saved.

    Granted, I dissagree with the way he is handling his life. But my life hasn't been a field of perfect choices, so I'm not throwing any stones. :smilewinkgrin:
     
  20. ituttut

    ituttut
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2004
    Messages:
    2,674
    Likes Received:
    0
    I agree Soulman, if that is what they all believe. But we must ask the question, can they come as proselytes to the Jewish "kingdom church" which is coming by faith. I don't feel comfortable in condemning them, as I will not be the one judging.
    Yes we find much in the book of Hebrews, which of course is written to and for the nation Israel. I find it interesting, even fascinating that this Epistle is the only one that calls Him "priest". As this is so, and we cannot find where Christ taught Paul anything of our being "priests", then the priesthood of the believer are those of Israel, just as they are the prophethood, and He is their King, rejected. But He will be in the millennium their King. He said He only came for His own, and He made the "priestly sacrifice" for His own people.

    We are not of His nation today, and are taught we are in the Body of Christ. I don't believe we in the Body of Christ have been chosen to fill this function of those that are promised the earth, and I believe we see this as the book of Hebrews is written to the Hebrews. The "priesthood" does not describe we today. We are in Christ Jesus, and as you say ”His priesthood lasts forever". The priesthood speaks of "work and faith" of which Jesus did, and as the nation of Israel will do as they "serve their God".
    Amen
    Right on. These of the great commission as given by Peter in Acts 2:38 believe they are Israel looking for their King, and that "kingdom that was at hand", being of the priesthood, and prophethood. I don't believe God will look too kindly on this kind of thinking. Lot's of works to be burned for any of those that may be saved.
    Such nonsense from those that claim to be Christian.
    So hard for us to believe this is in their belief. This is the same as those that continually pray "forgive us of our sins", when we know He took all our sins away at the Cross. They should continually be thanking and praising Him that our sins are no more.
    Yes! Our every sin has been taken care of. "To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
    7. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace", Ephesians 1:6-7.
    No doubt they have much error in their church.
    Yes the world calls her such since she came into existence some few hundred years after John's Revelation closed scripture.
     

Share This Page

Loading...