Saved during Tribulation?

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Phillip, Apr 5, 2004.

  1. Phillip

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    Okay, what is the general concensus....can a person be saved during the tribulation---after the rapure, (assuming your pretrib)? Please, include references.
     
  2. LadyEagle

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    Rev. 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
     
  3. Watchman

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    LadyEagle's reference is an excellent one. There has always been those you have died for their faith in the Lord Jesus, but here you have the beast, his image, his mark that can only put their deaths within the time frame of the tribulation. Also, their MUST be those who make it through this period to populate the earth during the rein of The Lord Jesus.
     
  4. john6:63

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    Good question, one I have mixed views on. I’m by no means a bible scholar, but here are my thoughts on the subject of salvation during the Tribulation. I tend to think that those that have flat out rejected God’s Word will be sent a strong delusion that they shall believe a lie, as stated in 2 Thes 2:10-12, and will have no chance at salvation. I also tend to think that those who were believers in God, but weren’t actually saved through faith in Christ, will have the opportunity to be saved.

    So your friendly neighborhood atheist, who says there’s NO God, needs to be lovingly witnessed too and prayed for. I wouldn’t advise any non-believer in God that if they miss the Rapture that they’ll have the chance to receive salvation then.
     
  5. Phillip

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    I am not arguing with you, but the argument that I have heard for this from others is that this is referring to the 144,000 witnesses, who are all supposed to be martyred. Any thoughts?

    I don't know the answer, but I need to go through the questions I am being asked. make sense? :D
     
  6. Phillip

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    Rev. 7:14 NASB And I said to him, "My lord, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white with the blood of the lamb. (Might want to refer to previous and following verses to stay in context)

    Is this referring to Christians who actually went through the tribulation? Some Translations, say "came out of great tribulation", leaving out the "the". Which is correct in the Greek? and does this prove salvation during the tribulation. Obviously, this is not referring to the 144,000 because it is defined as more people.

    Just throwing in food for thought.
     
  7. DeafPosttrib

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    The plan of salvation never change since creation to now, it will remain the same plan all the way to the end of the age.

    Christ commands us, go and preach the gosepl to all nations, and he said, 'lo(behold), I am WITH YOU UNTO THE END OF THE AGE'.- Matt. 28:19-20 The gospel of salvation always the same method since early Church to today, and will be continue through great tribulation till Christ comes with his angels at the end of the age. Simple.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
     
  8. Ed Edwards

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    Amen, Brother -- Preach it!.

    This is a good post, having nothing to do with
    the conversation at hand. The question here
    is: Will gentiles like you and i
    accept the continued free (well, prepaid by
    Jesus) salvation during the Tribulation Period.
    BTW, the Tribualtion Period we are talking
    about is the rise and reign of the Antichrist
    and is a seperate unique time period different
    from the Age of the Gentiles (AKA: Church
    Age). In fact, the very definition of
    "Church Age" says that it is the time during
    which the gentiles can be saved.

    We put emphasis on personal witnessing to
    the lost gentiles. Who is going to
    personally witness to the lost gentiles
    when the whole church is transported
    to heaven in the Pretribulation rapture/resurrection?

    [​IMG]
     
  9. LadyEagle

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    Hi, Phillip:

    I posted the whole chapter so we can see the context:


    Rev.7
    [1] And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
    [2] And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
    [3] Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
    [4] And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
    [5] Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
    [6] Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
    [7] Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
    [8] Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

    [9] After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

    **A great multitude of all nations clothed in white robes, etc., would not be the 144,000, who are 12,000 from the 12 tribes only.

    [10] And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
    [11] And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
    [12] Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

    [13] And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

    [14] And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.


    [15] Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
    [16] They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
    [17] For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

    **So, since they are not of the 144,000, 12,000 from each tribe, then, yes, they would be those who are saved out of the great tribulation.
     
  10. Ed Edwards

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    Thank you for the feeding.

    IMHO this scene is right after the
    pretribulation rapture/resurrection where
    there are lots of people. There
    are to many to number, yet later in the
    book, Revelation, the number 200,000,000
    is mentioned. I belive that the scene
    around the throne includes all those who
    died or were resurrected thus missing
    out on the tribualtion period.

    [​IMG]
     
  11. DeafPosttrib

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    Ed,

    Church never be halt forever and ever - Eph. 3:21. Church is not limited for the Gentiles only, also include Jews too. Whole people through all ages who have faith in Jesus Christ from Old Testament to now through unto the end of the age.

    It sounds like anti-semitism. Huh? Most Christians neglect Jews today, they focus on witness to Gentiles, they neglect Jews. The gospel is not for the Gentiles only, also, gospel is for everyone include Jews. Christ commands us go preach gospel to all nations over the world, that mean, we still witness to both Gentiles and Jews over the world. Today, there are several missionaries in Israel. Praise the Lord, amen.

    I have few deaf christian friends are Jews. I respect them very well. There are low percent of Jews are saved in the world today among Gentiles. Yet, the gospel does not limited to the Gentiles, the gospel still open for everyone in the world. GOd desires everyone to hear the gospel and repent to be saved. God also desire all Jews to be saved too.

    Christ tells us, he always with us till the end of the age/world.

    End of the age/world is same as Matt. 13:39,40,& 49; and Matt 24:3.

    How shall the end of the age/world be occured? The end of the age/world will be finally arrive when Christ shall come with his angels, that would be at the second coming of Christ.

    THe gospel is not finish yet during Antichrist reigns, the gospel will be continue spreading over the world while face persecutions same time. The gospel will be finish when Christ shall come with the angels at the end of the age/world.

    You saying, 200,000,000 that is speak of the army of the king of the east - Rev. 9:16 & 16:12.


    144,000 is symbolic number, not literal numbers. 144,000 is not always Jewish people. Also, it include both Jews and Gentiles over the world. Rev. 14:3-4 descrive 144,000 more clear. It tells us, they are redeemed from the earth, they are virgin, not defiled with women, they are redeemed from the sinners, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. That means, they are redeemed from the world through Jesus Christ, as they follow Christ. They are virgin, not defiled with women, means, they are not compromise with the world, they are separate from the world by walking godly with the Lord, and not compromsing with Babylon system of Revelation chapter 17, 18.

    144,000 represents children of Israel are God's children both Jews and Gentiles.

    144,000 will be gathering together - rapture after the four winds hold the earth - Rev. 7:1 refer to Matt 24:31, and Mark 13:27 too. That would be at the end of the age/world.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
     
  12. LadyEagle

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    DeafPosttrib,

    if, as you say:

    ...I wonder why 12,000 from each specific tribe of Israel is listed in Rev. chapter 7. Maybe God or John the Revelator were confused?

    :eek:
     
  13. Grasshopper

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    Or perhaps LadyEagle is the one confused.

    Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them that were sealed, a hundred and forty and four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the children of Israel:

    What does sealed mean? Perhaps being identified with someone or ownership. Who is sealed?

    Eph 1:13 in whom ye also, having heard the word of the truth, the gospel of your salvation,-- in whom, having also believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

    What else do we know about the 144,000?

    Rev 14:4 These are they that were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they that follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were purchased from among men, to be the firstfruits unto God and unto the Lamb.

    Who were these first fruits? Perhaps James can help us.

    James 1:18 Of his own will he brought us forth by the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

    James seems to be speaking to the 144000. Isn't it nice when scripture interprets itself? Kinda takes all the fun out of the wild speculation though, doesn't it? [​IMG]
     
  14. Spirit and Truth

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    Phillip:

    can a person be saved during the tribulation---after the rapure

    S&T:

    A better question would be "Is Jesus returning at the end of the tribulation?"
     
  15. Ed Edwards

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    DeafPosttrib: "Church never be halt forever and ever - Eph. 3:21. Church is not limited for the Gentiles only, also include Jews too. Whole people through all ages who have faith in Jesus Christ from Old Testament to now through unto the end of the age."

    Amen, Brother DeafPosttrib -- Preach it.
    Unfortunately, you have no idea what that which you said means.
    The fact you wrote it means that you God's truth
    that i was trying to convey. Here is what i said:
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
    "Church Age" says that it is the time during which the gentiles can be saved
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
    In other words, i defined what i mean by the term "church age".

    The main purpose God has for holding
    a Tribulation Period Judgement is to judge the
    unsaved gentiles (left after the pretribulation rapture
    takes the saved gentiles and Believing Messanic Jews away)
    and to save a maximum number of physical Jews.

    To communicate with ehat other it is necessary to
    speak/write/sign logically, with both knowing what
    the other is getting from that which we speak/write/sign.
    But you have been hoodwinked by the cult of ignorance that
    logic is human, not simple, and probably demonic.
    In fact, logic is that by which we communicate, wheter
    it is by speach/writing/signing.
    To prove something by logic one must agree what
    the words (again whether signed, written, or spoken)
    mean, start with some simple agreed-up on statemnts
    (sometimes called "Axioms"). Using the statements
    built upon by the definitions and axioms we can, by the rules
    of logic, make other statements of meaning which can
    be "proved" from the previously agreed upon
    deinitions and axioms.

    If we define lines and points and planes, we can develop
    a system of geometry. If we define people, governments,
    and laws; we can develop a government system.
    If we define people, sin, and god we develop a religios
    system.

    Until we agree upon something we cannot communicate.

    I was trying to define the term "church age" without posting
    my 20-screen post on the matter. Anyway "Church Age" i'll
    use as meaning: "the time during which the gentiles can be saved".
    The term "church age" is NOT mentioned in the Bible,
    the meaning it means is in the Bible but run about (you guessed
    it ;) 20-screens.

    Can Gentiles be saved now? yes.
    Can Gentiles be saved after the destruction of the heavns and the earth?
    No.
    Can Gentiles be saved, the ones in eternal hell fire? No.
    So, when is the last time that a Gentile can be saved?
    that, my friend, is the subject of this thread.

    We are not discussing "church age" = "the life of the church"
    for the life of the church is forever and the term is meaningless.
    For "church age" i want something with a beginning and an end.
    "Church age" = "the life of the church" has no end, for it is
    eternal.

    [​IMG]
     
  16. Ed Edwards

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    Actually not. All persons who
    believe in a literal tribulation and
    many who believe in a figurative tribulation
    believe Jesus will return at the end of
    the tribulation. Some, of course,
    believe that will be the one and only time
    Jesus comes again. I belive that
    Jesus will return at the end of the church
    age: a one day (one "7", seven year) period
    during which on earth the tribulation period
    judgement will be going one. So Jesus
    will appear unto His own at the beginning
    of the Tribulation Period Judgement and
    will destroy the antichrist at the end
    of the Tribulation Period Judgement.

    I think Bro. Phillip asked a good question.

    [​IMG]
     
  17. LadyEagle

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    Grasshopper, once again you are mixing apples and oranges. And once again, the post-tribs have derailed another pre-trib thread. [​IMG]

    12,000 of each tribe of Israel is pretty clear. 12,000 x 12 equals 144,000 and does not consist of Gentiles no matter how you try to spin it to fit your post-trib theology.
     
  18. Daniel David

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    GH, perhaps your theology could be a little more developed than simply using a concordance.

    Here is what you do:

    You see a text that you don't know the interpretation of.

    You then look for common words and themes.

    You then equate the two things as talking about the same thing without any regard to context.
    __

    People can and will be saved just like they are today during the 7 year tribulation.

    As for the 144,000, their exact identity is NOT fully revealed to us. Given what it does say, we know they are 144,000 males who are from specific tribes. Beyond that, it is speculation.
     
  19. Ed Edwards

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    Yum! Fruit salad!
     
  20. Ed Edwards

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    1. Will this happen to gentiles?

    2. I believe this will happen to Jews.
    The Tribulation period is a time for
    Jews to get saved.

    Three Messanic Jews (Jews who believe that
    Iesus is their Messiah) have told me
    thier view: When the last Gentile that is
    going to get saved gets saved, then
    Jesus will come again to rapture
    the church age gentiles/Messanic-Jews
    at the pretribulation rapture/resurrection.
    The Tribulation Period will start.
    In the middle of the 7-year Tribulation
    the antichrist will commit the Abomination
    of Desolation (A.O.D.) and millions
    fo Jews will realise that antichrist
    is a false messiah, Jesus is the
    real messiah.

    I believe the scriptures will support
    that understanding of how events will
    come down. If so, then no gentiles will
    be saved during the Tribulation Period.
    They could if they would, but they won't.
    Jesus is willing, but the flesh is weak.

    wave:
     

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