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SAVED even if you don't reject 1Cor 12 and 1cor 14?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by BobRyan, Jul 4, 2007.

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  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    #61 BobRyan, Jul 11, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 11, 2007
  2. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    More fun for true believers in 1Cor 12 --


    4 Now there are varieties of     gifts, but the same Spirit.
    5 And there are     varieties of ministries    , and the same Lord.
    6 There are     varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons    .
    7 But     to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good    .
    8 For to     one is given the word of wisdom     through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit;
    9 to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit,
    10 and to another the effecting     of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another     the distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues.
    11 But one     and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.
    Hint: There is no “to all except Women” in this chapter!!
    In fact in Acts 21:9 we SEE that The Spirit gave the gift of prophecy to Philips 4 daughters.
     
    #62 BobRyan, Jul 11, 2007
  3. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Paul argues for equality and equal opportunity in 1Cor 12

    Nothing like "these gifts are applicable to men but restricted from women"


    27 Now you are Christ's body, and individually members of it.
    28 And God has appointed     in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues.
    29 [b    ]All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets[/b], are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of miracles, are they?
    30 All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they?
    31 But earnestly desire the greater gifts[/    b]. And I show you a still more excellent way.
    Paul lists the primary gifts in vs 28
    Apostles
    Prophets
    Teachers
    Miracles
    Healings
    Helps
    ADMINISTRATION
    Tongues

    But there is a dark-ages style of man-made-tradition that insists that women “do not qualify” for any of these leadership – teaching gifts and so God must limit women to gifts like “helps” –

    Some even go so far as to insist that if you do not choose to believe in their man-made down-sized gifts, downsized-scripture idea, then you can not be saved.
     
    #63 BobRyan, Jul 11, 2007
  4. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Post 53 still going unnanswered


    Whether you take the NASB model that “EACH ONE” has these gifts or the some of the other translations indicating that EACH one has at least one of the gifts to SHARE in public – either way this shows NO restriction against ANYONE having at least one of the gifts to share!!
     
    #64 BobRyan, Jul 11, 2007
  5. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Quote:DHK
    Things were still changing. The Bible was not yet complete. Prophecies for that period of time were still being fulfilled.

    Philips daughters DID NOT WRITE scripture -- are you saying the Holy Spirit was confused on that point so before the Bible was complete he was handing out gifts to people that WOULD NOT write scripture??

    Quote:
    DHK
    All these gifts ceased at the time of end of the first century, when the NT was complete, and when the Apostles passed of the scene.


    When Paul wrote to the people of Corinth ALL BIBLE WRITERS had ALREADY BEEN GIVEN their prophetic gifts -- so AGAIN your view is confronted by Paul saying that STILL even AFTER all Bible writers have THEIR GIFTS the 1Cor 12 GIFTS are valid and the saints are to "desire EARNESTLY spiritual gifts ESPECIALLY THAT YOU may prophesy" -- somthing that SHOULD NOT EXIST if all Bible writers had already been given THEIR gifts and NO MORE prophetic gift was needed!!

    How sad that your ideas do not actually pan out in scripture sir.
     
    #65 BobRyan, Jul 11, 2007
  6. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Quote:
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by BobRyan
    Clearly we differ in that I accept the Bible teaching for the role women and you do not DHK --

    But the question remains - do you still insist that all who do not leap off into the error that you are promoting can not be saved?? Baptist? Presbyterians? Etc?



    And the answer is??
     
    #66 BobRyan, Jul 11, 2007
  7. tamborine lady

    tamborine lady Active Member

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    :type:

    DHK posted:

    1 Corinthians 12:28-30 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

    And he said the answer is no.

    You are correct, not everybody does these things. But ..... some DO!

    Even today!!

    Selah,

    Tam
     
    #67 tamborine lady, Jul 11, 2007
  8. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Not only is the sense of 1Cor 12 that each of these gifts ARE given -- but there is no "And THIS set of gifts can never be given to a woman".

    in fact Paul argues for equality in 1Cor 12 so that the selection is not based on "gender" it is the will and purpose of the Holy Spirit giving out each gift to any family, any gender any age that He so chooses. He does not reference ANY restriction at all about "not being allowed to give gifts beyond HELPS to women"
     
    #68 BobRyan, Jul 12, 2007
  9. tamborine lady

    tamborine lady Active Member

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    Amen Bob, even jesus taught equality among men and women.

    Gal 3-28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

    Jesus is Lord,

    Tam
     
    #69 tamborine lady, Jul 12, 2007
  10. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Bob,
    Let’s look at your varied (and meningless) responses, all of which are on page seven. In every post you still neglect to answer basic questions asked of you. Your answers betray you Bob. You seem to be saying: No I can’t give you a direct answer to your questions, so yes I am involved in a cult!! Is that the real truth? I ask you about one Scripture. You totally ignore it and jump to another. It seems that you are afraid to give a straightforward answer lest it condemn you. So let’s look at it:

    In Post #61 I asked you if you could differentiate between chapter 12 and chapter 14 of 1 Corinthians—meaning that you still had not explained 1Cor.12:28-30 which I had posted for you many times. You deliberately avoid it. You only answer is:

    “Been there done that,” with a couple of meaningless links which don’t give the answer to the question that I asked at all. You still haven’t explained the passage which so effectively condemns your position.

    In Post #62 instead of quoting 1Cor.12:28-30, you quoted 12:4-11, and then add an irrelevant comment about Philips four daugters. Again you avoid the passage that I have given you.

    Here is Post #63
    Finally you at least quote the passage and attempt to answer the point that I made. The trouble is, Bob: You have tunnel vision. You miss the mark. Why did I quote this passage? Read it again. It shows plainly that not all have the gifts. Not all have a revelation. Not all speak in tongues. Not all have the gift of miracles. Not all can heal. Not all have any one of the gifts mentioned. This goes directly contrary to what you have been ranting throughout this thread where you think Paul said “All has a revelation.” Each one does not have a revelation. Paul wasn’t saying that. You have taken that verse, that rebuke, out of its context and are making it say something that Paul never intended it to say. You make Scripture contradict Scripture. All do not have a revelation. Paul makes that very plain. Some may have a revelation; not all. That is unscriptural. All never had a revelation. That is clear from this passage. You have deliberately twisted the Word of God. Beware:

    2 Peter 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

    Post #64
    You say: “Post 53 still going unanswered.”
    --Whatever theological argument you have thrown at me Bob, I have answered. But be warned,
    Such attacks against the KJV
    is unwarranted, and in another forum would put you on the road to a suspension. To put it bluntly your accusation and logic are bogus and asinine. What I did was quote 1Cor.12:28-30 in the KJV. You then proceeded to call it a false translation, at the same time 1Cor.14:23-26 as the correct translation. Pay attention Bob!! You weren’t even quoting the same passage. How can a passage in 1Cor.14 in a MV be compared to a passage in 1Cor.12 and a conclusion made to declare that the 1Cor.12 passage is a false translation! :rolleyes: This is just plain foolishness.
     
    #70 DHK, Jul 12, 2007
  11. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Post #65
    In answer to a statement I made you said:
    “Philips daughters DID NOT WRITE scripture -- are you saying the Holy Spirit was confused on that point so before the Bible was complete he was handing out gifts to people that WOULD NOT write scripture??”

    I never said Philip’s daughter’s wrote Scripture. Don’t put words in my mouth. Do you remember the prophecy that Peter quoted on the day of Pentecost from the book of Joel:
    Acts 2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
    “They shall prophecy” The they is identified in verse 17 as “your young men and your young women.” This is part of that fulfillment. It was a historical fulfillment that happened in the days of the Apostles, and then ceased. We have no other evidence of women prophesying in the Bible. This was a one time event. There were some unusual events that happened in the Book of Acts. That is why they are called “The Acts of the Apostles.” They were given the power to work miracles and signs they we don’t have. They had that power to demonstrate to others (especially the Jews), that their message was of God, and that they were of God. See 2Cor.12:12 and Heb.2:3,4

    Further you wrote:
    When Paul wrote to the people of Corinth ALL BIBLE WRITERS had ALREADY BEEN GIVEN their prophetic gifts -- so AGAIN your view is confronted by Paul saying that STILL even AFTER all Bible writers have THEIR GIFTS the 1Cor 12 GIFTS are valid and the saints are to "desire EARNESTLY spiritual gifts ESPECIALLY THAT YOU may prophesy" -- somthing that SHOULD NOT EXIST if all Bible writers had already been given THEIR gifts and NO MORE prophetic gift was needed!!
    How sad that your ideas do not actually pan out in scripture sir.

    “All Bible writers had already been given their prophetic gift.” Are you sure of that? Paul wrote to the Corinthians in 55 A.D. It was an early epistle. Jude, the half brother of Jesus, was not even saved until later in life, sometime after the resurrection. His letter wasn’t written until about 70 A.D. How do you know that he already had his prophetic gift?? You don’t!
    Besides, your point is a red herring and has nothing to do with the subject at hand.
    A study of 1Cor.13:8-13 will demonstrate that the gifts ceased when the Bible was completed at the end of the first century. There was no need for them after that. Thus if they were to desire to prophecy, it was in the first century not in the 20th or 21st century. We can go through one gift after another and see how they have ceased. The gift of tongues has ceased. Tongues means language. I am a missionary. To the nations I go, I must sit down and study the languages. If tongues were in operation God would give me the gift, or at least he could. But that doesn’t happen anymore. The gift has ceased.
    The gift of healing has ceased. God heals today through answer to prayer. But nothing takes place after the manner of Acts 5:16. All that came to Peter (thousands) were healed, instantaneously, no matter what the ailment or disease was. We don’t see that today. These gifts have ceased. If the gifts were operational today we would see evidence of them, but we don’t.
    People have visions; but they are not of God. All the revelation we need is in the 66 books of the Bible. Those who claim to have revelation after that are adding to the Word of God, and God says they are cursed for doing so. This is the position that Ellen G. White put herself in. The gifts have ceased. They were only needed in the first century before the Scriptures were completed.

    In Post #66 you say:
    “Clearly we differ in that I accept the Bible teaching for the role women and you do not DHK --
    But the question remains - do you still insist that all who do not leap off into the error that you are promoting can not be saved?? Baptist? Presbyterians? Etc?”

    Must I even dignify you to answer such a demeaning false accusation implied in that so-called question? Do you stoop to innuendo because you fail in debate? Other than the false prophetess of Ellen G. White, have I questioned anyone’s salvation on this board? Yet you are the one that cannot refute the Biblical doctrine that I expound, and yet at the same time call it error that I promote. I know you are obligated to defend the cult you are in. But first you must demonstrate it to be error before you call it such.

    In Post #68 you say:
    “Not only is the sense of 1Cor 12 that each of these gifts ARE given -- but there is no "And THIS set of gifts can never be given to a woman".

    in fact Paul argues for equality in 1Cor 12 so that the selection is not based on "gender" it is the will and purpose of the Holy Spirit giving out each gift to any family, any gender any age that He so chooses. He does not reference ANY restriction at all about "not being allowed to give gifts beyond HELPS to women"

    You fail to look at the list carefully Bob.
    How many female Apostles were there? That was the first in the list. The answer—NONE.
    How many female Teachers were there? NONE! A woman couldn’t have authority over a man.
    How many female Prophets were there? NONE! A woman couldn’t teach a man.

    There are many things women cannot do. Women cannot be pastors. You continue to argue that women can exercise these gifts in spite of the Scripture that I give you where it clearly says that women are to keep silence in the church; to be under authority; not to teach a man nor to have authority over a man. It is impossible for a woman to exercise the majority of the gifts listed with these restrictions put in place. Of course that further strengthens the claim that Ellen G. White was simply a wolf in sheep’s clothing, a false prophet.
     
    #71 DHK, Jul 12, 2007
  12. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    #1. you are the one that brought up the subject of women needing to be silenced in church as something to be connected with your "cannot be saved" list. I am simply asking if you can say that this is or is not something that stops people from being saved.

    Here is where you follow up your list of "can not be saved" wild ideas with "silencing women"

    http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1037911&postcount=61

    IF it is not really a salvific issue -- then perhaps you are simply tossing in non-salvific issues into the thread to confuse the reader. I have no idea as to why you would do it.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #72 BobRyan, Jul 15, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 15, 2007
  13. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    In my response #49 I quote DHK

    And of course the obvious problem with that DHK response is ...




    As we can see when we place the quote you are responding to in with your response. I am not arguing that you claim Philip's daughters wrote scripture -- I am arguing that your position about "the Bible was not finished yet" as the "solution" for why Philip's daughters had the gift of prophecy when your doctrine claims women are not supposed to get thtat gift -- does not fit the facts of scripture.

    Your tactic of "don't say I claimed Philip's daughters wrote scripture" is totally bogus. you are relying on the reader not having the information above in an attempt to confuse the reader.

    Why are you doing that??

    How is that tactic any kind of a direct solution to your problem as highlighted above with Philip's daughters.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #73 BobRyan, Jul 15, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 15, 2007
  14. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Well at least we agree that as Joel 2 says "in the last days" this would happen and that Acts 2 is a fulfillment of that.

    Apparently the idea of "God is against giving that gift to women" idea is dead.


    Hmmm "Ceased by the end of the first century"???

    Ceased on "Tuesday"??

    Is there a Bible texts "These gifts have CEASED" that comes before 1Cor 12 saying that they CONTINUE??

    Is there a Bible text "these gifts to women have ceased" before 1Cor 14 saying "EACH ONE has a teaching or revelation or tongues"???

    Do you have anything to back up your claim here?


    No other evidence other than 1Cor 14, 1Cor 12, Philips Daughters -- i.e. NT Bible examples!!

    In the case of prophecy EACH TIME a person did it - it was a direct intervention by God - as can be seen in the protocol being used in 1Cor 14 for what happens if a prophet who is seated suddenly gets a revelation.

    It is not a case of "I got this thing back at Pentecost and I still have it acting up from time to time".

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #74 BobRyan, Jul 15, 2007
  15. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    I have often quoted Acts 17:11 as PROOF that we must pursue doctrine "sola scriptura" -- the catholics usually respond that we can not use the book of acts to defend doctrine.

    so I have already seen that tactic used.

    But as I say to them "ALL scripture is given by inspiration from God AND is profitable for doctrine" 2Tim 3:16... I still stand by that sir.

    Because as you point out - Pentecost (post-cross) happened before the writing of Paul to Corinth. Jude was part of the group by then.

    However EVEN if Jude was "the one remaining person to be given the gift of prophecy" how in the world does that translate to Philip's daughters - all the Church of 1Cor 12 and "EACH one has a prophecy or a tongue or a teaching" in 1Cor14.

    RATHER it would be "this gift is being held back for JUDE nobody else should seek it" 1Cor 14 - vs DHK.

    This is indeed a wild offbeat tactic.

    How in the world can the SUBJECT of prophecy NOT have anything to do with a PRO-Prophet argument such as mine???

    How confused does the reader have to be to conclude that this has nothing to do with the subject?

    DHK I ask that you emplore you to at least use some reason on this point.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #75 BobRyan, Jul 15, 2007
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  16. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    1Cor 13 saying NOTHING of the form "The bible is not yet completed".

    1Cor 13 says NOTHING of the form "Prophecy is not for women"

    RATHER 1Cor14 says that the SAINTS were ALL to "desire EARNESTLY spiritual gifts ESPECIALLY that you may prophesy".

    Each of your arguments appears to fly directly in the face of scripture DHK. Why do you keep doing that?

    There are a number of Christian denoninations that would differ with you on that DHK since nothing in 1Cor 13 talks about "the Bible not being complete" or "Gifts only until the Bible is completed" -- are they all going to hell or is this just another example of "differences" in the body of Christ?

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #76 BobRyan, Jul 15, 2007
  17. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    How many women are teaching in children's classes in women's classes and yes some even in mixed adult classes with BOTH men AND WOMEN in all denominations all across the planet?

    And are ALL THESE Christians not going to heaven DHK?

    And yes WE SEE no women apostles in Acts. We could argue that he first century READER might have said "hmm I see no women apostles so MAYBE the H.S means to restrict this one gift".. But we DO see women TEACHING Apollos! They DID see that women were ordained by God as Bible-blessed judges of Israel!

    And they WOULD have been saying tothemselves "today we DO SEE women Prophets" -- so the idea that the first century reader would be READING 1Cor 12 saying "and of course there is no such thing as women prophets" is totally bogus.

    Many Christian churches see that clearly -- in many Christian denominations --

    Are they TOO not going to heaven DHK?

    DHK when you are SHOWN the prophetic gifts to "EACH ONE" in 1Cor14 and to Philip's daughters and to Elizabeth, and Mary and Miriam and Anna and Deborah and...

    Your response is invariably the the CONTEXT for the 1Cor 12 reader would be such that they would say

    DHK "How many female Prophets were there? NONE!

    When almost every Christian group on the planet differs with you on that point - do you then argue that they must all be denied heaven??


    dead wrong.

    I argue that the Holy Spirit in 1Cor 12 does not make the case "these gifts are excluded from women" AND I argue that in 1Cor 14 "EACH one had a tongue or a prophecy or a teaching" AS scripture SAYS in 1Cor 14.

    These were gifts that were not "given to them by women" they were GIVEN by the Holy Spirit and without restriction.

    Furthermore the Holy Spirit commanded all members of the Chuch of God "DESIRE earnestly spiritual gifts but especially that YOU may prophesy".

    The Bible just is not in your corner on this one DHK.

    Many Christians in all denominations (yes even yours) see this clearly.

    Is it your claim that they can not be saved DHK?

    DHK -- hate to spring it to you but last Sabbath we had some women who were not silent in church. They asked questions during Sabbath School. One had special music. One gave a testimony. Several had spoken prayer requests.

    The Sabbath before that we had sentence-prayers from the congregation spoken in turn and MOST of those who chose to pray out loud were WOMEN!

    You would have found it pretty shocking DHK!

    But many Christians in all denominations (even yours) would not have objected NOR interpretted the scriptures to such a wooden-rule extent as to bend it to being in objection these "non-silent" women in church.

    But I admit some groups do go to your extreme -- I don't claim that those extreme groups "are lost".

    My question to you is -- do you claim that all these Christians are lost who differ with you on this point DHK?

    In Christ,

    Bob

    to be under authority; not to teach a man nor to have authority over a man. It is impossible for a woman to exercise the majority of the gifts listed with these restrictions put in place. Of course that further strengthens the claim that Ellen G. White was simply a wolf in sheep’s clothing, a false prophet.[/quote]
     
    #77 BobRyan, Jul 15, 2007
  18. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    I have news for you DHk -- I don't go around giving orders to the women of my church -- to the wives of other men NOR do I allow other men to order my wife to believe certain things in church or to tell even my daughters what to believe. The may teach and instruct JUST as they do the men in general but if they should wildly-imagine to go to my wife or daughters and start trying to exert authority over them specifically, I would be there to object. The RULE you are talking about applies within the family.

    I think there are Christians in all denominations that would agree with me on this point. Do you consider all these Christians as bound for hell DHK?

    I see - so Philip's daughters "did not exist" and the "EACH ONE given a teaching or a tongue or a prophecy" in 1Cor 14 meant the church of Corinth was only composed of MEN?? What are you suggesting?

    Suppose a great many Christians in all denominations (even your own) do not go with whatever you happen to think up there - do you argue that they can not go to heaven DHK?

    This ALONE is the point that you might make and find agreement at least among non-SDAs that this one PERSON was not a prophet but SDAs NEVER claim that she SHOULD be accepted by a prophet by non-SDAs so even SDAs would agree to some extent on that point.

    In summary - Your arguments have failed DHK. And even worse - you are left having to answer questions about your restrictive views on which Christians can be allowed salvation.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #78 BobRyan, Jul 15, 2007
  19. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Read your posted URL again. Show me anywhere in that post where I said anything about salvation. You are grasping at straws. You entered the subject of salvation as a red herring. The verses plainly state that women are to keep silent in the church. It is a matter of obedience. I never said anything about salvation. If you say such then you are falsely accusing me. However, that being said, the command in 1Cor.14 still stand, and it is just as relvant today as it was back then: Women are to keep silent in the church. You have no answer for this except to mock the teaching. That has been your pattern and it is unfortunate that you mock God's Word.
    Why not just bellieve it instead.
     
    #79 DHK, Jul 15, 2007
  20. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Actually I point out exactly where 1Cor 12 fully debunks your view.

    Still waiting for you to address that 1Cor 12 point DHK.

    Your argument (as I pointed out in post 63) is that the Holy Spirit is not giving ALL the gifts to ALL the people so that everyone has the SAME SET.

    What you fail to reason through is that this is not the salient point of my argument NOR is it what YOUR argument has to defend to sustain itself

    RATHER My argument is that ALL the people are going get SOME one (at least) of the gift and NOTHING in the PRACTICE or the TEACHING of the NT authors (specifically in 1Cor 12 and Acts) precludes women in the form "THIS gift does not apply to women" the way you imagine it to be doing.

    So the burden is on you to PROVE the "This gift is not for women" myth can be supported with actual scripture.

    And that problem remains for you DHK.


    indeed - but that is not the salient point of my argument AND it is not what your argument needs to survive the complete debunking it gets in both 1Cor 12, 1Cor 14 and Acts 21:9 and in the Gospels AND in the O.T.

    My argument was from 1Cor14 and was specific to the church at Corinth where PAUL SAYS "EACH one has a tongue or revelation or teaching" and you argue that NO WOMEN could have these speaking gifts given by God for church assemblies.

    Clearly your argumen died then and there DHK.

    Many Christians in almost every denomination (even yours DHK) would differ with you on this DHK. Are they all denied salvation in your view?

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #80 BobRyan, Jul 15, 2007
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