Saved? How can we know?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by His Blood Spoke My Name, Feb 28, 2007.

  1. His Blood Spoke My Name

    His Blood Spoke My Name
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    In a recent thread, tinytim wrote:

    In another thread, Helen wrote:

    These two statements seem to clash with each other.

    I have heard by many on this board and in churches that we do not know if a person is saved or not, that we only know our Salvation.

    My question is this...

    If we don't know for sure that a person is saved, how can we honestly call them a Brother or a Sister in Christ?


    Thoughts?
     
  2. Disgruntled UK Baptist

    Disgruntled UK Baptist
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    I think we not only CAN make a fair judgment on this (not saying we will never be wrong) but that we MUST make such a judgment. Otherwise how do we know who we can elect to membership in the church / elect to office in the church / marry?

    D
     
  3. Lacy Evans

    Lacy Evans
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    If your doctrine requires some pre-requisite fruit, or pre-requisite amount of outward holiness, Then none of us can ever know if anyone is saved.

    Back-loaded works-based salvation is no different than Front- loaded salvation by works.

    Lacy
     
  4. Keith M

    Keith M
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    I agree, Lacy. Also we have a person's word whether they are saved or not, and usually their actions will give evidence I know for a certainty that I (nor anyone else) can ever get to heaven on our own merits - that is why Jesus Christ shed His perfect and sinless blood for us, paying the price so that we don't have to pay it ourselves.
     
  5. Disgruntled UK Baptist

    Disgruntled UK Baptist
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    "It is faith alone that saves, but the faith that saves is not alone"

    Calvin (If I recall correctly)
     
  6. MB

    MB
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    Hi His Blood Spoke My Name;
    We know them by there fruits. In my opinion there is a difference between judging the Salvation of another and knowing them by there fruits. I believe judgment involves a resolve of either exoneration or condemnation. This kind of judgment I try to avoid . Knowing doesn't mean there has to be a consequence simply because we know. I know Christians by there actions and how they live there life. The best quality of a true Christian is Love for those around them, good or, bad. Not just other Christians or family but loving even those who would defame them, or cause them pain in some way. Knowing them shouldn't make any difference as to how we treat them because we are suppose to love our neighbors just as much as our Christian brothers and sisters. Not to mention that we are suppose to treat others as we would like to be treated.
    There are those in certain positions who are in those positions to judge. Although according to scripture this should be a righteous judgment. This is when we have to lean on God for help. This is the only way I know of that a righteous judgment can happen and that is through prayer and allowing the Lord to lead your decision whether you agree with it or not.

    If a man confesses that Christ is who He said He is that being the Son of God that He died for our sin and rose again on the third day after His death and has ascended to the Father and sits at His right hand. How can we argue that He isn't saved?
    I wouldn't. Paul said;
    Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
    MB
     
  7. amity

    amity
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    I don't believe we can ever know if any one individual is saved or not. Nor can we know that we ourselves are saved. We accept people into a church body on profession of faith, not because of the fruit we see.
     
  8. Lacy Evans

    Lacy Evans
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    Are we saved by doubt? The reason we can be certain we are saved is because we can be certain that Christ's sacrifical offering on our behalf was/is accepted by God the Father and satisfies all the requirements of His holiness.

    Doubt comes when we let some "preacher" slip works/fruit/outward holiness/or some other sign into the gospel. And it makes no difference whether he slips it in before salvation like the Catholics or after salvation llike the "lordship-salvation" folks do. It is the same.

    Like Snickers, no matter how you slice it it comes up faith plus works.

    lacy
     
  9. Lacy Evans

    Lacy Evans
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    I really don't have a problem with that quote. But that is light years away from conclusions like, "If you are 'really' saved, you'll do such-n-such or won't do so-n-so."

    lacy
     
  10. saturneptune

    saturneptune
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    The best post here is taking a person's word and watching their life to give a good indication. Some other threads and in real life take the word "indication" or "probably" and substitute "I know for sure about that person." To me, the person that claims to know the heart of another human as God does, is probably one of the most dangerous threats to the Christian faith that there is.
     
  11. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob
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    We can wrestle back and forth about knowing all we want and if we judge our lives by the scriptures then we can "know" that we believe and live according to the scriptures. But all knowledge hinges on "faith" and faith is the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen, and we hope for that which we have not seen and with patience we wait for it. If you ever ever have one doubt then all your "absolute" knowledge goes out the window and that my friends is why we have faith that our knowledge is true. I don't even attemt to judge another one if they are saved or not beyond a shadow of a doubt for that is the job of God and not mine. Who are thou on man that would judge another's mans servant? This is where you can use the scripture "let God be truth and every man a liar".

    Romans, chapter 8
    23: And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
    24: For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
    25: But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
    26: Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
    27: And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

    We have not seen the Lord face to face yet but by the Spirit we have faith these things were revealed unto us.

    I think I know as much as any man can know but it all come down to "faith". I don't think we should go so far as to make "faith" void.
     
    #11 Brother Bob, Feb 28, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 28, 2007
  12. DHK

    DHK
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    No man knows the heart but God alone.
    The Lord knows them that are His.
    We are not called to be judges of men's hearts; but rather we are called to be "fruit inspectors." (Mat.7:20).

    1. There is an element of change in a believer's life.
    2. There is an element of trust in the word of another's testimony. I take a person's salvation testimony at face value, unless or until it proves otherwise.
     
  13. Bro Tony

    Bro Tony
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    Wrong----1 John 5: 13

    Bro Tony
     
  14. EdSutton

    EdSutton
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    I fully agree with this, Lacy, especially as to the 'backloading' vs. 'frontloading' of salvation by works. And I have less than little patience for those who attempt to 'cloak' this by calling it 'fruit-inspection', either.

    Ed
     
  15. EdSutton

    EdSutton
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    Wonderful sounding ditty! Got a verse or two for this, outside on the oft quoted and misquoted, AND out-of-context, verses in James 2, Calvin or whoever notwithstanding?

    After all, there are 66 books, over one thousand chapters and 31,000 verses in Scripture. Surely one can find one or two more, in context.

    Ed
     
  16. EdSutton

    EdSutton
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    Not to mention what I just typed about 'fruit inspection', which BTW refers in context to false prophets.

    Ed
     
  17. EdSutton

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    As to others, you may or may not be correct.

    As to yourself, that is a direct contradiction of I John, Chapter 5, for that is exactly the reason John said he wrote the Epistle. (I Jn. 5:8-15, especially I John 5:13))

    Ed
     
  18. amity

    amity
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    So when I doubt I lose my salvation?

    No, I am sure someone is going to heaven, and I have a HOPE, that is all, that I am among that number. There is no cocky certainty here.
     
  19. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob
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    Well, I don't think we have more knowledge than all the Apostles and everyone of them said "Lord is it I"? What knowledge we have is inwardly for the outward man is still waiting on his change. If we make faith void then we can not please God. I don't believe there is a man alive that has never doubted himself.
     
  20. Amy.G

    Amy.G
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    Can someone explain what backloaded salvation is?
    Thanks.
     

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