Saved in childbearing... from what?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by James_Newman, Aug 23, 2007.

  1. James_Newman

    James_Newman
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    We got shutdown by Dr Bob. I thought we were on a 30 page system these days, but oh well. This topic is certainly worthy of a thread of its own.

    1 Timothy 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

    I'll say this, they is not the woman, the woman is she. Rather, they is probably referring to her children. She shall be saved in childbearing if they (her children) continue in faith and charity etc... So this saving is conditioned upon a woman raising godly children.
     
  2. lbaker

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    James,

    Thanks for picking this subject up again.

    Hmmm, are you saying a woman will survive giving birth if she raises the child she gives birth to in a Godly manner?

    Les
     
  3. James_Newman

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    Now wouldn't that be an odd promise? No, I am not saying that. I am saying that whatever the saving is from, it is at least partially conditioned upon a. bearing children, and b. raising them up right.

    Take into consideration the 'elect lady' John writes to:

    2 John 1:1-4
    1 The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth;
    2 For the truth's sake, which dwelleth in us, and shall be with us forever.
    3 Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.
    4 I rejoiced greatly that I found of thy children walking in truth, as we have received a commandment from the Father.

    I believe this lady is shown to be a partaker of this promise in 1Tim, whatever it is.
     
  4. lbaker

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    I don't think John is meaning an individual lady there. That is his way of referring to the church, either a local church he is writing to or the church at large.

    Les
     
  5. James_Newman

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    Wouldn't make much diference to me. Obviously the epistle was included in scripture for our edification.
     
  6. lbaker

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    My point was that the passage wasn't relevant to physically giving birth.

    Les
     
  7. James_Newman

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    The physical aspect of childbearing would be of less importance than the continuing of the children in faith, charity and holiness. I'm sure we can agree that most any woman can bear children. I think that the purpose of the promise in context is that the woman would not despise her position under the headship of the husband, but would rather be encouraged that her labours (get it, labours? :laugh: ) would not go unrewarded.
     
  8. TCGreek

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    1. James, this is a difficult verse at best that have troubled NT scholars, commentators and theologians for years.

    2. "But she will be delivered through childbearing, if they continue in faith and love and holiness with self-control" (tcg).

    a. "She will be" is singular, but "if they" is plural, but it is still a reference to woman/women. This is not unusual in Greek. I know of know commentator who takes your view and would argue from the language for that.

    b. The children are not being addressed; womanhood is.

    3. There're some four leading views on this passage among commentators, et al. At this time, I care not to propose a fifth.
     
  9. James_Newman

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    I find that strange, because in my theology it is easy to understand. This was the type of thing that Lacy was talking about with his 'hammer/wrench' analogy.
    Can you show some more biblical examples of this type of pronoun mangling?
     
  10. TCGreek

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    1. Well, that is good if you got it figured out. I sure haven't.

    2. First, this is no pronoun mangling.

    a. "She will be saved" is one word in the Greek and it is a future passive verb.

    b. Acts 16:31, "Believe on the Lord Jesus and you and your household shall be saved."

    c. "Believe" is singular and "shall be saved," which is applied to both the jailer and his household is singular. I hope that answers your question.

    3. A person should not avoid the use of the biblical languages, but should learn how they work.
     
  11. James_Newman

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    You said that the pronoun 'they' referred to the woman. I'd call that mangled. I wouldn't refer to you as 'them'. But you say this is common in 'the greek' so I was just wanting a little more corroboration for this idea. You say it is because 'if they' is one word in the greek. Is there no greek word that would translate 'if she'?
     
  12. TCGreek

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    1. James, I wish I can help you some more. All I call tell from my experience of NT Greek, that an English grammar would not work.

    2. For example Pau says, "Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting – which are not proper – but rather giving thanks" (Eph. 5:4). "Vulgar speech, foolish talk or coarse jesting" are all feminine words," yet the relative pronoun "which" is neuter, not feminine. One would have thought that the relative pronoun should have been feminine too.

    3. Here's an English example: Let him or her know that they not be welcome without a Greek grammar. We speak and write like this.
     
  13. TCGreek

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    If you notice all of my postings, I only referring to Greek when necessary.
     
  14. James_Newman

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    At least not with the interpretation you want the scripture to have.
    It's kind of apples and oranges though, isn't it? Word gender in language is one of those things that doesn't make a whole lot of sense in English, but we do know the difference between singular and plural, as I'm sure the Greeks did as well.
    I don't think that is even proper English. It may be common speech, but the proper pronoun would be he, regardless of feminist ire against the masculine indefinite.
     
  15. James_Newman

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    http://englishplus.com/grammar/00000027.htm
     
  16. TCGreek

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    1. Find me 10 translation of the Bible that support you view.

    2. I was just illustration how the language works.

    3. I already gave you an example of two nouns separated by "and," taking a singular Greek verb instead of a plural Greek verb in Acts 16:31.

    4. So your point about the Greeks knowing the difference between singular and plural doesn't add up.

    5. James, I try to keep it real. With that in mind, I'm not going to discuss how the Greek works with someone who doesn't know how it works, but who thinks he knows how it works.
     
    #16 TCGreek, Aug 23, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 23, 2007
  17. TCGreek

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    1. You have made your point. Forgiving me for not taken into account the incorrect nature of "Let him or her know that they must return the books they borrowed."

    2. Maybe I was wrong for using this faulty example. At any rate, the verdict is still out on this structure.
     
  18. Pastor Larry

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    There are a number of interpretations. Here's the right one:

    The context is teaching in the church, from which women are forbidden but rather are to keep silence. Which would raise the question, If women can't teach, then how can they contribute to the sin problem they helped to caused through being deceived? By bearing children and raising them in a godly way.
     
  19. James_Newman

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    I'm not sure what you mean by that, support my view... Or are you just getting a little testy ;) I'll forgive you if it's the latter, forgive me if it's the former.
    There is nothing unusual about Acts 16. You said
    Well, jailer is singular and household is singular, so there is perfect agreement between these words.

    Thats a cop out, but lets just say that the one who is to continue is the woman. Does it really change anything? We have a conditional works based salvation in this scripture, and that is the real issue.
     
  20. Accountable

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    Where does the Bible say that women can't teach?
    I have pastored for many years and have yet to find a church that does not use women to teach women's classes and children's classes.
     

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