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Saved, Lost, Saved Again.

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by steaver, Feb 16, 2006.

  1. eloidalmanutha

    eloidalmanutha New Member

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    steaver wrote:
    The Spirit must be "in" those who God hardens the heart as well and these folks are lost, like Pharaoh. The Holy Spirit was working "in" Pharaoh but Pharaoh was not "born-again", as defined in the NT, the New Covenant.

    eloidalmanutha:
    The Holy Spirit was never "in" Pharaoh. God hardened his heart against Israel. Not sure where you get that the Holy Spirit was in him.

    The only examples of the Holy Spirit being "in" OT people were in fact believers.
     
  2. Tazman

    Tazman New Member

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    Fact: Some will take christ at His words (encouragements and WARNING) and repent continually presenting themselves worthy while others will fall short of his grace.

    OSAS is true for those who perservers till the end. [​IMG]
     
  3. eloidalmanutha

    eloidalmanutha New Member

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    OSAS is true for those who perservers till the end. [​IMG] </font>[/QUOTE]Jesus spoke to the 7 churches via John - obviously they were comprised of believers - getting spewed out of God's mouth or having the candlestick removed is to be cut off - the Word Jesus is giving us is to stay the course - only in overcoming to the end is salvation secured:

    Rev 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

    Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
     
  4. Tazman

    Tazman New Member

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    Exactly! This point is plain, but Stever will not except it, but in turn would suggest that Jesus isn't Talking to believers, because in his mind TRUE believers will never deny Christ or need to prove themselves. That is his ONLY way of getting his version of OSAS to seem acceptable. :rolleyes:

    Stever won't agree with you because it contradicts His theology of OSAS, isn't that right Steve?

    Stever thinks removing "Candle Sticks" refer to turning of the lights so the sluggard believer can go to sleep.
    [​IMG]
     
  5. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    Jhn 3:10 .....Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
    Jhn 3:11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
    Jhn 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

    Jhn 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
    Jhn 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

    Jhn 3:5 .........Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

    Now you coming around ;) . They received the "new birth", the "New Covenant".

    Their faith is what was saving them. But now a New Covenant, a New Birth, a New Creature, a Better Covenant. How is it better? The Holy Spirit is joined within the spirit of the new convert. A new creature is created in Christ. It is better and it is new because the OT saints did not have it. The OT saints had no rebirth, it was not offered yet, thus it is called "New" covenant. They followed the law and sacrificed animals to cover their sins. These sacrifices only covered them until the sacrifice of Jesus Christ paid their sins in full.

    You do understand that this is "foreordained"? The Father in His foreknowlege pre-determined to send the Son as Savior of the world and the Son agreed. God has foreordained everything for His own pleasure and has chosen to unfold everything in His own timing. Surely you do not think that Jesus was literally slain before Creation? Come on now, how do you say it..."get real"..."read the book"

    The OT saints needed Jesus Christ's shed blood just the same as the NT saints need it to be saved. Nobody gets into heaven without the blood of Christ washing away their sin. OT saints went to Paradise until Jesus led them into heaven. They needed the blood of the lamb and the Holy Spirit promise! What joy that must have been in Paradise when Jesus came in and said, let's go saints! I have overcome the grave! Receive ye the Holy Ghost! Off to Heaven we go!(Yeah, that's not scriptural, but I can just imagine [​IMG] )

    God Bless!
     
  6. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    Hey Tazman, glad your here! Since this thread was begun to find testimonies of those who were once saved and then got lost and then got saved again, maybe you could give us yours? Have you ever lost your salvation? I can't seem to find anyone who has!

    God Bless!
     
  7. eloidalmanutha

    eloidalmanutha New Member

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    stever wrote:
    The OT saints needed Jesus Christ's shed blood just the same as the NT saints need it to be saved. Nobody gets into heaven without the blood of Christ washing away their sin. OT saints went to Paradise until Jesus led them into heaven. They needed the blood of the lamb and the Holy Spirit promise! What joy that must have been in Paradise when Jesus came in and said, let's go saints! I have overcome the grave! Receive ye the Holy Ghost! Off to Heaven we go!(Yeah, that's not scriptural, but I can just imagine )


    eloidalmanutha
    interesting that you should say that when your premise is that ALL believers have to be born of water and spirit. And that can only happen to live people, not dead ones - so how could they receive the Holy Spirit? Perhaps you can explain how they got "saved" after the fact :D
     
  8. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    Mar 12:27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

    God Bless!
     
  9. eloidalmanutha

    eloidalmanutha New Member

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    stever wrote:
    Their faith is what was saving them. But now a New Covenant, a New Birth, a New Creature, a Better Covenant. How is it better? The Holy Spirit is joined within the spirit of the new convert. A new creature is created in Christ. It is better and it is new because the OT saints did not have it. The OT saints had no rebirth, it was not offered yet, thus it is called "New" covenant. They followed the law and sacrificed animals to cover their sins. These sacrifices only covered them until the sacrifice of Jesus Christ paid their sins in full.

    eloidalmanutha:
    The sacrificial system was not put into place until about 1,500 BC - that leaves a ton of OT saints that were not "saved" by your standards ;)
     
  10. eloidalmanutha

    eloidalmanutha New Member

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    Mar 12:27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

    God Bless!
    </font>[/QUOTE]perhaps you could elaborate - thanx :cool:
     
  11. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    They were still alive in spirit while living in Paradise.

    God Bless!
     
  12. eloidalmanutha

    eloidalmanutha New Member

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    Absolutely, so there was no reason for them to be reborn - they were already in Heaven :D
     
  13. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    Not at all. I reitterate. All are saved by the Blood of the Lamb-Jesus Christ. OT saints waited in Paradise and NT saints go right on in. The animal sacrifices only gave temporary pardon and also gave prophecy of the ultimate sacrifice to come. Adam and Eve were temporarily pardoned when they sinned and God killed an animal and covered their bodies with it's skin. The shedding of blood began right away and God personally did the first sacrifice.

    God Bless!
     
  14. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    This is were we disagree and we will have to leave it at that I guess. I say they were in Paradise, a place seperate from heaven, a place were the begger went and the rich man could see him.

    God Bless!
     
  15. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    Hbr 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission .

    Lev 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul .

    Rom 5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement .

    Hbr 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins .

    God Bless!
     
  16. eloidalmanutha

    eloidalmanutha New Member

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    Lev 4:20 And he shall do with the bullock as he did with the bullock for a sin offering, so shall he do with this: and the priest shall make an atonement for them, and it shall be forgiven them.

    Lev 4:26 And he shall burn all his fat upon the altar, as the fat of the sacrifice of peace offerings: and the priest shall make an atonement for him as concerning his sin, and it shall be forgiven him.

    Lev 4:35 And he shall take away all the fat thereof, as the fat of the lamb is taken away from the sacrifice of the peace offerings; and the priest shall burn them upon the altar, according to the offerings made by fire unto the LORD: and the priest shall make an atonement for his sin that he hath committed, and it shall be forgiven him.

    Lev 5:10 And he shall offer the second [for] a burnt offering, according to the manner: and the priest shall make an atonement for him for his sin which he hath sinned, and it shall be forgiven him.

    Lev 5:16-18 And he shall make amends for the harm that he hath done in the holy thing, and shall add the fifth part thereto, and give it unto the priest: and the priest shall make an atonement for him with the ram of the trespass offering, and it shall be forgiven him. . And if a soul sin, and commit any of these things which are forbidden to be done by the commandments of the LORD; though he wist [it] not, yet is he guilty, and shall bear his iniquity. And he shall bring a ram without blemish out of the flock, with thy estimation, for a trespass offering, unto the priest: and the priest shall make an atonement for him concerning his ignorance wherein he erred and wist [it] not, and it shall be forgiven him. .

    Lev 16:20-22 And when he hath made an end of reconciling the holy [place], and the tabernacle of the congregation, and the altar, he shall bring the live goat: And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send [him] away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness: And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.
     
  17. eloidalmanutha

    eloidalmanutha New Member

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    This is were we disagree and we will have to leave it at that I guess. I say they were in Paradise, a place seperate from heaven, a place were the begger went and the rich man could see him.

    God Bless!
    </font>[/QUOTE]Except for the fact that Paul stated Paradise is Heaven. I don't think you ever said how Paradise got zapped from one place to another, so I will just stick with what Paul said ;)

    2 Cor 12:2 I know a man in Christ fourteen years before--whether in the body, I do not know, or out of the body, I do not know, God knows--such a one was caught up to the third Heaven.
    3 And I know such a man--whether in the body or out of the body, I do not know; God knows--
    4 that he was caught up into Paradise and heard unspeakable words which a man is not permitted to speak.

    Please note, he is saying that the third Heaven *is* Paradise, not a different place, nor does Paul even hint that it was "another place" at any time :cool:
     
  18. eloidalmanutha

    eloidalmanutha New Member

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    Not at all. I reitterate. All are saved by the Blood of the Lamb-Jesus Christ. OT saints waited in Paradise and NT saints go right on in. The animal sacrifices only gave temporary pardon and also gave prophecy of the ultimate sacrifice to come. Adam and Eve were temporarily pardoned when they sinned and God killed an animal and covered their bodies with it's skin. The shedding of blood began right away and God personally did the first sacrifice.

    God Bless!
    </font>[/QUOTE]I have heard this before with the animal skin/sacrifice/blood thing. I am curious why God would have to do a sacrifice for sin by killing an animal??? Sorry, that does not compute. There is no scriptural support for God killing an animal for sin sacrifice.
     
  19. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    Here, I will let God explain it to you...

    What could I possibly add to this that would explain the difference between "pardoned" and "made perfect"? The difference between having sin covered temporarily and having sin paid for and taken away? The penalty must be paid and Jesus Christ must needs pay it "from the foundation of the world". "It is written"! No one could enter Heaven, the Holy of Hoilies, the abode of the Father, without the blood of Jesus Christ. This is why the scriptures connect the dots in a way that shows the OT saints needed Jesus' sacrifice as all do in order to enter Heaven. This is why I believe Paradise and Heaven were different places pre-cross. After the ressurrection Paradise was taken into Heaven by Jesus Christ Himself, the High Priest. This is why Paul goes into Paradise and John sees Paradise in Heaven after the ressurrection.

    Jam 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

    2Ti 2:15 Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

    I don't know what eles I can say to help you see how the OT writings portray the things to come through Jesus Christ.

    Why did God kill the animal? Why didn't God put grass skirts on their nakedness? Sin happened and blood must be shed, because it is written before the foundation of the world. The shed blood and the covering of them with the skin is a shadow of things to come. It was a temporary fix for the problem they created.

    God Bless!
     
  20. eloidalmanutha

    eloidalmanutha New Member

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    I am well aware of the Heb passage and I agree that Jesus had to die in order for the full sacrifice of sin to met. I also agree that the OT sacrificial system was a pattern of what was to come and fulfilled in Jesus Christ - fully - once and for all.

    However; the OT is clear, that forgiveness for sins was met by the sacrifice of animals - because God said it was so. Why? Because Jesus was slain before the foundation of the world and in God's sovereignty declared sin forgiven by animals knowing that Jesus would be sacrificed. There is no time frame with God. He is Infinite. He speaks as though things have already come to pass in the OT.

    Also, the Irsaelites believed that their sin was forgiven by the sacrifices for sin because God said it was so. Those that believed by faith, were partakers of the Old Covenant by which salvation was given. It is true that Israel, as a nation, broke the covenant, but those who believed were still covered under it. It was not God who broke the covenant, but the people.

    The NC was a better covenant because it was One sacrifice for all through the shed blood of Jesus. There was no longer the need for animals, who were a pattern, yet still were considered the sacrifice needed for sin in the OT.

    Paradise is Heaven, has always been Heaven. Those saved in the OT were saved fully and did not need to be reborn. There is no scripture that says they had to go through another process - because God saw that Jesus had shed His blood from the foundation of the earth. The sacrificied animals represented His sacrifice. The OT saints were in Heaven before Jesus came. There is no scripture that says otherwise.

    If you believe that the dead were in some sort of holding tank - which you call Paradise - then perhaps you can explain how Isaiah was in Heaven and had his sins forgiven?

    Isaiah 6
    1 ¶ In the year that King Uzziah died, then I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, high and lifted up. And His train filled the temple.
    2 Above it stood the seraphs. Each one had six wings; with two he covered his face; and with two he covered his feet; and with two he flew.
    3 And one cried to the other and said, Holy, holy, holy is Jehovah of Hosts; all the earth is full of His glory!
    4 And the doorposts shook from the voice of the one who cried; and the house was filled with smoke.
    5 ¶ Then I said, Woe is me! For I am cut off; for I am a man of unclean lips, and I live amongst a people of unclean lips; for my eyes have seen the King, Jehovah of Hosts.
    6 Then one of the seraphs flew to me with a live coal in his hand, snatched with tongs from the altar.
    7 And he touched it on my mouth, and said, See, this has touched your lips; and your iniquity is taken away, and your sin is covered.

    Ezekiel also bore the iniquity of Israel.

    Ezekiel 4:4 And you, lie down on your left side, and lay the iniquity of the house of Israel on it. The number of the days that you shall lie down on it, you shall bear their iniquity.
    5 For I have laid on you the years of their iniquity, according to the number of days: three hundred and ninety days. And you shall bear the house of Israel's iniquity.
    6 And when you complete them, even lie on your right side, the second. And you shall bear the house of Judah's iniquity forty days; a day for a year. I have set it for you, a day for a year.

    And this spoken by God:

    Ez 14:20 though Noah, Daniel, and Job were in its midst, as I live, declares the Lord Jehovah, they would deliver neither son nor daughter; they by their righteousness would deliver only their souls.

    ***********************
    Stever wrote:
    Why did God kill the animal? Why didn't God put grass skirts on their nakedness? Sin happened and blood must be shed, because it is written before the foundation of the world. The shed blood and the covering of them with the skin is a shadow of things to come. It was a temporary fix for the problem they created.


    eloidalmanutha:
    A sacrifice for sin not only required that blood be shed, but that it be sacrificed. So you are saying that God sacrificed an animal in order that Adam and Eve could be forgiven?
     
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