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Saving souls

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Vince, Dec 30, 2003.

  1. russell55

    russell55 New Member

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    Absolutely. But that doesn't mean that God intends those He saved to stay forever on the elementary things. We are urged to move on to the more difficult things found in scripture. Peter says Paul's letters have things in them that are difficult to understand, but isn't it important for us to try to understand those difficult things? There not there for us to just ignore, are they?

    Back at you [​IMG]
     
  2. Vince

    Vince New Member

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    Yelsew,

    The purpose of the thread isn't debate, it's strictly informative. This is a debate forum, but it's also where the Calvinists are. I can't stop you from posting here, I guess I was just hoping you'd extend some courtesy and let the study continue without heckling.
     
  3. Yelsew

    Yelsew Guest

    Ridiculous Wesley! When I underline scripture, I also will write a word or two in my margin so I can quickly find the scripture I might be searching for. NOT adding to the importance, but aiding in Bible Study or sharing of scripture!

    Diane
    </font>[/QUOTE]When you first turn to that page where do your eyes go? That's right to the highlighted or undelined text. Thus you have added imphasis to the scripture.
     
  4. Yelsew

    Yelsew Guest

    The purpose of the thread isn't debate, it's strictly informative. This is a debate forum, but it's also where the Calvinists are. I can't stop you from posting here, I guess I was just hoping you'd extend some courtesy and let the study continue without heckling. </font>[/QUOTE]What does "study" mean to you? Is taking only the opinions that match your own?

    Most BBS's that I frequent have a "Bible Study" forum, strictly for the purpose of studying scripture, not for debating. By implication debate means diversity of opinion, where "study" does not.
     
  5. Vince

    Vince New Member

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    We're on the same page here, Spurgeon even mentions this:
    http://www.spurgeon.org/calvinis.htm

    At this point then, what we have are a bunch of people who are dead in sin and, for whatever reason, attending an evangelical service (hypothetically speaking). We'll say that the common motivation is that they are humoring a friend that politely asked them to attend.
    The Gospel is preached and the seed is planted in the hearts of the elect, but the others are basically hardened against the message.

    Now forgive me if I'm dragging this out into excruciating detail, but I want to be absolutely clear on this process.
    The unelect are not receptive because God has not called them, or in a harsher sense, does not want them. I say this understanding the caveat that Calvinist doctrine teaches total depravity of man.
    If I'm leaving anything out here that's noteworthy, please jump right in. [​IMG]

    Returning to our second group, the elect, a seed has been planted which we have established can be initially resisted, but is ultimately irresistable.
    I'm curious at what point the grace becomes irresistable if it isn't immediately. Is God giving these regenerated elect an opportunity to make a choice about Him that ultimately has only one result?

    To close, is it customary to include the doctrines of irresistable grace when preaching to the lost? I can see how the full Gospel can be preached without it and not necessarily be deceptive, and how its inclusion could immediately turn off some listeners, but wouldn't that be completely irrelevant in the presence of irresistable grace?

    Thanks and God bless,
    Vince~
     
  6. Vince

    Vince New Member

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    Yelsew, I've stated twice now that I'm not in agreement with either camp. I'm gathering information on Calvinism and figured this would be the place to go. You can start a hundred different threads of your own to debate what's said here. I'm not trying to turn this into a study forum, I just want some answers so that possibly in the future I can competently contribute to a debate, knowing something about both topics involved. If you've got a head full of information for combatting Calvinism, kindly save it until that's the focus of the discussion.
    This is all I'm asking and I'm asking it because right now it's not doing any good.
     
  7. russell55

    russell55 New Member

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    No. The unelect are not receptive because of their opposition to God, which comes from their very nature. No activity or inactivity of God is the CAUSE of anyone's rejection of the Gospel. Rejection is the default position of human beings.

    And I don't think we can say that God doesn't want them, depending on what you mean by that. We can say that God doesn't will to save them.

    Yes. And that's why you can't really say that the nonelect aren't responsive because God has not called them. They aren't responsive because they are depraved. The cause of a prisoner being imprisoned is his crime. That he has not been pardoned is not the CAUSE of his incarceration. Pardon may be his only way out, but that doesn't make a lack of pardon the cause of his imprisonment. It's like that with the nonelect. God's call may be his only way out of condemnation, but that doesn't make the lack of a call the reason for his condemnation.

    This isn't how I would explain it. The seed has been planted, and it will grow because it is planted in soil already prepared (by God's call) to be receptive to it. God's call is the unblinding of blind eyes, or the softening of the hard heart, or the enlightening of the understanding. It is the work of the Spirit, and once that's accomplished, the gospel is received with joy because its true value is recognized. So, once the inward change produced by the Spirit has occured, there is no more resisting. Up until that inward change (or what we are calling God's call) the call of the gospel will always be resisted. So one of the elect may resist the call of the gospel for almost their entire life, if that inner work of the Holy Spirit hasn't been done yet, but once the inner work is accomplished, they will resist no longer.

    Everyone who hears the gospel has an opportunity to make a choice. Those who are regenerated will make that choice from unblinded eyes, softened hearts, enlightened understanding, and their choice will be the one consistent with those things.

    It would be customary to keep the gospel message simple, and as you can see, that would probably preclude teaching irresistible grace. And you are right, if God is saving someone, they will respond to the truth of the gospel is in the message no matter what wrapping it comes in. But since we are the instruments God uses to bring in His harvest, I think we would want to do what is wisest when presenting the gospel message, and in my opinion, that means telling the simple gospel with no unnecessary embellishments. The more difficult, less elementary doctrines can wait.

    I hope this helps clarify things.
     
  8. Primitive Baptist

    Primitive Baptist New Member

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    It all depends on what you mean by "saving souls."

    "BRETHREN, if any of YOU do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins." (James 5:19, 20)

    Here we have an example of one of the brethren saving a brother, not a sinner dead in trespasses and sins. In that sense, "saving souls" is the thing to do, but if you mean that I can do something to save the soul of a sinner from eternal death in hell, only God can do that.
     
  9. Ransom

    Ransom Active Member

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    Vince said:

    At this point then, what we have are a bunch of people who are dead in sin and, for whatever reason, attending an evangelical service (hypothetically speaking). . . .
    The Gospel is preached and the seed is planted in the hearts of the elect, but the others are basically hardened against the message.


    Right. As the Gospel is spread by its believers, it has a twofold effect on its hearers: some it quickens, some it hardens. As Paul writes, "we are the aroma of Christ to God among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing,
    to one a fragrance from death to death, to the other a fragrance from life to life" (2 Cor. 2:15-16). Those who regard the Gospel as lifeless and powerless are repelled by it - or, as you say, hardened - on the other hand, for those who believe in its power to bring life, it is something beautiful and attractive.

    Now forgive me if I'm dragging this out into excruciating detail, but I want to be absolutely clear on this process.

    No prob - I'm a "details" person myself.

    The unelect are not receptive because God has not called them, or in a harsher sense, does not want them.

    Suppose there are ten inmates on death row. The president pardons two of them. Do the remaining eight die because the president refused to pardon them? No, they die because they are convicted criminals sentenced to death.

    Same idea here. The unelect are not receptive because they are sinners by nature and therefore hostile to the things of God. It is true God has not called them, but to call that the cause of their hardening would be to put the cart before the horse.

    I'm curious at what point the grace becomes irresistable if it isn't immediately.

    The short answer: When God says so. "Irresistible grace" is just that - irresistible. For whatever reason, which God knows and we don't, he lets us go our own way for a time. Rom. 8:28 says that God works all things for the good of those who love him, so we can only guess there must be some moral to the story that we don't find out this side of eternity.

    To close, is it customary to include the doctrines of irresistable grace when preaching to the lost?

    The proper subject matter of evangelical preaching is the Gospel: that all men are sinful and stand condemned before a holy God, but in the substitutionary death of Christ on the cross, forgiveness of sins is possible and is offered to anyone who will turn from his sin and trust in Christ. "Repent and believe" is the shorthand that has been used in this thread previously.

    On the other hand, this isn't to say that other doctrine (including irresistible grace) shouldn't be taught in the open just in case a lost person hears it and uses it as an excuse to reject the Gospel. If you've read Spurgeon you know that he preached strong doctrine and strong evangelism in the same sermon. Christianity is not a mystery religion; it has no secrets that are kept from outsiders and available only to initiates.
     
  10. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    When you speak of "hardening" what do you mean?

    Who does the hardening? The bible speaks of men hardening themselves and in other places it speaks of God's judicial hardening of certain men. Calvinism's teaching implies guilt for His active hardening of lost souls so that they don't even have an opportunity to respond to his universal calling to repentance. This is why most believers are repulsed by such a doctrine. It brings reproach upon the justice of our God.


    I don't mean to nitpit an illustration because I do realize all analogies fall short, however I must point out the flaw of this line of reasoning.

    The president didn't merely pardon 2 of the inmates as you suggest. He pardoned them all. He called all of them to repent and be saved not just two of them. Your illustrations leaves out the universal calling of our God by the means of the gospel.

    Lets look at it this way. What if the president had made the provision for all ten imates to be pardoned and announced to the world that he had done so but he knew only two of them spoke English while the rest spoke spanish. He went to all ten of them knowing that only two would understand his words and said in english without any interpretor, "If you say you are sorry you can be pardoned." Of course only the two that understood him complied with his request and were freed. Then, knowing the rest could not understand him, sent them to be condemned. Why? Because they did not comply with his request, which he has publicly stated was made to all 10 inmates. This makes the president seem bias, imparitial and most definately unjust. Not because he condemned the eight men who deserved condemnation but because he claimed to have geniunely offer them something they did not have the ability to even understand.

    Calvinism makes God seem to be unjust and untruthful in his call to repentance to the whole world.

    How can anyone say God has not called them? He has called all to himself but some are unwilling. Calvinism teaches two calls. One is universal and the other special, internal, secret and irrestiable. Where is this second call taught in the scripture? You would think that something so important as a calling to true salvation might get at least a chapter of explaination. No, instead Calvinists misapply a couple of obsure texts to prop up a non-existant doctrine.


    No doubt that the Holy Spirit has the power to be irresistable but the scripture clearly shows us that people successfully resist Him showing that man has the power to resist the desires of the Holy Spirits working in one's life.


    Here is the universal nature of God's call to which I referred earlier. Is it "possible" and "offered" to all ten inmates? Then why do only 2 get pardoned? Is it ultimately because of their own free will refusal to accept that which has been granted to them, or is it, as you suggest, because they never really understood what was offered to them in the first place?
     
  11. Ransom

    Ransom Active Member

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    Skandelon, Vince has asked that this thread remain an "information" thread rather than a debate thread, so he can find out from Calvinists what they believe and understand it better.

    If you want to take issue with my Calvinist doctrine, feel free to start another thread on the subject. I will not respond to you here.
     
  12. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    Ok, I'll repost it. Thanks [​IMG]
     
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