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Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by drfuss, Sep 20, 2006.
Interesting percentages. Anyone know more about this poll?
Looks to me like the vast majority of us SBCers aren't Calvinists. I don't believe there's any surprise here, at least not among the pastors I know.
I think the 10% are on here
This is a great example of what wasted time and resources looks like... The SBC does it again!
Those phone calls sure add up, don't they
Interesting, I would have thought the 5 point calvinist pastors to be closer to 30% . . .
Thanks for the link.
I find these survey results to be absolutely shocking!!! Given my experience with SBC churches, I never would have imagined that as many as 10% would be 5 point Calvinists. I would have guessed something closer to 0.1%. Where are they all hiding?
I wonder if this is as accurate as the baptism and membership records. Only a random sampling of 413 pastors were contacted. What was the method of selecting the sample?
The method would matter, but 413 is well beyond what you need for a statistically significant result. If it was truly a random sample, then that would mean the results are meaningful. It's self-selecting surveys that are totally bogus.
I'd like to know what they specifically asked. All this really says is that these people CLAIM to believe X. A good survey would question them on doctrinal points without letting them know the purpose of the survey. Throw in some distractors to make it hard to tell what the survey is about. Then use the answers to determine what they really believe.
Watch it there . . . you are starting to sound like a 'pollster' . . .
I'm not surprised based on the folks I work with in the SBC. AND It is a nice looking graph. When I was writing for Lifeway, I used to write sidebars for the teacher's material and they made really spiffy graphs then too.
I AM surprised one of the moderators hasn't pulled it though because of it's BIG. :tongue3:
My question would be, of those 85% how many have a clue as to what Calvinism is?
A better question would be, of those who understand the Calvinist position how many are Calvinist.
I think the average pew sitting SBC'r is Biblically ignorant.
Then maybe a better question would be concerning SBC pastors who are calvinist. Although some of these may not understand calvinism and be biblically ignorant, it may give a clearer picture of the status of the SBC with this issue.
This poll was for SBC pastors. Gotta read that fine print.
I would have to agree. But I think it goes far beyond the SBC. I think (and I could be wrong) the average pew sitting Christian is Biblically ignorant. That's one reason why the cults are growing like they are. They're taking the Biblically ignorant "Christians" (and I use that term loosely) and feeding them a lie, and they don't know the difference.
Well, I've had to do a fair amount of surveys in my work. I've learned a lot about what NOT to do by watching what the vendors and publications did. They had an agenda, so they asked questions that would lead the respondents to answer the way the publication wanted them to answer. So they got the best results money could buy.
Consequently, I've learned how to do surveys in such a way that you are more likely to get honest, useful information. And I've learned that one of the least effective ways to get honest, useful information is to just ask a plain question like "are you a 5-point Calvinist?" People have motives to say they are when they know they aren't. Or to say they aren't when they know they are. People will say they are (or aren't) when they don't know what it really means. And so on.
All this survey shows is that 85% of SBC pastors say they're 5-point Calvinists. Assuming they were all honest, the most you can get from the results is that 85% of SBC pastors, given whatever they think 5-Point Calvinism means, are of the opinion that they are 5-point Calvinists. That isn't very good information, is it?
If, instead, you do a survey that keeps the person unaware of what information you really want, you can ask questions about doctrine that will tell you a lot more about what the person really knows and believes. The results would be a whole lot more accurate because the person surveyed would be answering questions according to his beliefs without knowing that you simply want to know if they're a 5-point calvinist. That removes the motivation to lie, it removes the people who would say they are but don't understand the doctrine, etc.
They did ask pastors. Unfortunately, I know a few SBC pastors who do not understand Calvinism and are Biblically (and historically) ignorant, so just asking pastors doesn't solve the problem in all cases.
Most SBC pastors think 5 point Calvinist is equivalent to Hyper-predestination.
The poll would have been much better if they had also asked if they were 4pt. or 3pt. also. Most Calvinists would have to clarify limited atonement.
You are correct, that was very fine print.:thumbs:
You are correct Ferron, but to be a TRUE calvinist you must hold all 5 points of the system of theology. If you take away one point, the system is inadaquate and inaccurate since each point is built and sustained by all other points. To remove one actually collapses the system. Most know I am no Calvinist or Arminian but I gained this understanding from many others holding to Calvinistic theology. Just some examples of who I speak with Strangebaptistfire.com - Calvinistgadfly - both are somewhat different in there theology (they hold debates against each other :thumbs: ) but both make the same claim concerning true understanding of Calvinistic Doctrines maintains you are a 5 pointer. And since it is a SYSTEM of theology it maintains that one must hold to the system in its fulness or it is no longer a system that explains why you have come to your conclusion.
Strangebaptistfire (I believe is part of the Founders blog or a subset of it) and has different blogging authors - Gene Bridges, Dustin Seagers, Timmy, Nathan White - and I have spoken to each (on their individual articales). Gene Bridges is quite the intellect (as has bounced me around a time or two- it was fun but I was a little sore afterwards) Just don't get him agittated at you or he will write articles so long your eyes will beg for mercy.