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SBC meeting - 2009, Historical significance

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by EdSutton, Jun 29, 2009.

  1. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    Generalites are derived from specific actions among people. Where there is people there is activity and it can be both good and bad. Pornography is increasing. That is a fact. So what is written in Ecc.l does not surprise me. Think about who Proverbs is written to. Do you discount Proverbs and Eccl.? If you have read Eccl and Prov. it should not surprise you too. It is a fact that every temptation that is present in the world is also present in the church.

    One of the major problems the SBC is covering up its wrongs as if nothing ever happened. I am sure that you know what the Bible says about what will happen to people who do that. I know for for a fact that in the middle 1990s at HBU the horoscope was published in the university school newspaper each week. The president told me there was nothing he could do. Really? Nothing he could do about the Satanic publication? What did Jesus do to the tax gatherers tables? Nothing?

    It is a well known fact that there are non-Christians teaching in Baptist colleges and universities. Where are the leaders of the SBC in this matter? Siding with Satan by their lack of boldness or willingness to comply?
     
  2. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    Why do you assume the worst?

    FTR, no one has presented proof of the allegation.... "adult activities" increased when the SBC was in Vegas. All we have seen are "everybody knows" and "I heard from some guy at a hotel". That isn't proof of anything but gossip.
    Another unsubstantiated attack. What "wrongs" have been covered up as if nothing has happened?
    Fifteen years ago?

    The school newspaper published a horoscope 15 years ago and that equates to SBC leadership covering up "adult industry" activity in Vegas as if it never happened?
    Again we have the "it is a well known fact" statements but no proof.

    Show me evidence of a non-Christian teaching at a Baptist college or university.
    Just plain ugly accusations with no proof.

    Shameful.

    peace to you:praying:
     
  3. sag38

    sag38 Active Member

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    gb, over and over again you trash the sbc. You ask me to say something positive but, I'm not the one with a chip on my shoulder. Why can you not say anything positive?
     
  4. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    If you are so positive about the SBC then you could set the example by naming some positive things. Apparently that is not possible.

    There is one positive things about the SBC. It is experiencing a reduction in numbers and perhaps the leaders will focus on what is really important rather than the preservatiom of the organization.
     
  5. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    Ever read Proverbs?

    If anyone had proof I doubt they would say anything until much later when they realize they have a serious problem. I am quite sure that internet pornography has increased and that is not limited to Las Vegas. One example of ungodly activity was the horoscope issue at HBU. Another was when the trustees lied about Dilday because they "admitted" that they did not want the press to know. Another is the issue of the BFA when several pastors brought it forth and the SBC completely wrote it off in a public meeting. Do you have proof of the pedophiles in the SBC at the time they committed their immoral acts? Of ocurse not but anyone knows it is happening among SBC leadership. Reading your Bible will reveal the character of man--both the godly and ungodly.

    Can you not lump all Satanic activity together as ungodliness? Satanic activity being ignoried is the same as sin being ignored. Do you have proof of the pedophiles in the SBC at the time they committed their immoral acts? Of course not. Think about how Satan works.

    [/quote]Show me evidence of a non-Christian teaching at a Baptist college or university. [/quote]A retired friend of mine taught at Baylor many years ago and he told me that he was the only Christian in his area of study. Plus the fact that there was a man I had gotten to know in a business I managed who was teaching at Baylor at the time whom I had shared my faith with and it was very clear he was not a Christian.
     
  6. Tom Bryant

    Tom Bryant Well-Known Member

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    1. The cooperative program
    2. 5 Seminaries
    3. Al Mohler
    4. Our missionaries preaching the gospel throughout the world
    5. Funds for church planters in the US
    6. Disaster Relief

    ok, there's 6... I am sure there are more. But your request is too silly to spend any more time on.
     
  7. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    -All the Pastors that are staying faithful to the word of God
    -All the church members who are serving faithfully
    -All those who ignore the silly little nay sayers and just serve God
    -All those who actually realize the convention is made up of more than just its leaders and work in such a cooperative manner as to be in place to further the Kingdom.
    -All the churches that are being planted this year alone
     
  8. Baptist Believer

    Baptist Believer Well-Known Member
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    To be fair, Houston Baptist University (HBU) has always been a Baptist General Convention of Texas (BGCT) school, not an SBC school. Certainly, HBU has always been strongly right wing (like East Texas Baptist University) and has generally supported the so-called “conservative resurgence”/”fundamentalist takeover”.


    Again, most Baptist college and universities are state-convention run institutions, not SBC. As far as I know, only recently has the SBC gotten into undergraduate education with the undergraduate programs on seminary campuses.


    Again, Baylor was formerly a BGCT school until it broke away in a covertly-planned trustee meeting that infuriated most Texas Baptists. The BGCT has almost no say in its affairs and the majority of current board of trustees (when they aren’t completely ineffective due to infighting) seems to believe that there is a fundamental conflict between a high-quality education and a commitment to theism (simply belief that God or gods exist, much less Christian belief).


    Frankly, I don’t consider Baylor a distinctly Christian school anymore. There are certainly lots of fine Christians there, but the leadership of the school has been so afraid of “fundamentalism” that they have driven the school into the ditch of secularism


    That being said, I think that, overall, the BGCT has historically done a nice job of managing their schools and universities. My alma mater, Howard Payne University (HPU), did an excellent job of preparing me for ministry. In fact, when I went to Southwestern Seminary, it was like repeating much of my undergraduate program, except with a lower standard of teaching (with some notable exceptions), not much of an emphasis on critical thinking, and courses that did not deal with their subjects as completely or deeply than I covered them in my college studies. Back in the 1980s when I earned my B.A. in theology at HPU, we had five major professors (it is a small school) in the school of Christianity. It was no accident that the five professors covered the theological spectrum. We had one professor who was a rank liberal (one of the few I ever knew personally in Baptist life) who had an anti-supernaturalism bias, a slightly left-of-center moderate who did not have an anti-supernaturalism bias, but was a believer in higher criticism, a centrist moderate, who had strong biblically-literal beliefs mixed with a very strong social justice commitment, a right-wing conservative who understood that social conservatism is not a good substitute for biblical hermeneutical principles, and a hard-core right-wing Evangelism Explosion socially-conservative professor.


    In the challenging mix of those viewpoints, the professors respectfully critiqued each other (usually indirectly) and demonstrated that people of varying viewpoints could get along without being at each other’s throats all the time. Very few students “went liberal” based on the liberal professor’s influence. There were a few, but most of them left completely left the orbit of Christendom and would have likely done so no matter who was teaching. Most of the students I know found themselves somewhere from moderate to well-informed and articulate fundamentalist and were well-equipped to work in the churches.


    But in today's SBC seminaries, that kind of diversity of viewpoints is not allowed. The leadership of the convention seems to think that seminarians don't know how to think for themselves (or if they do, they should be discouraged from it because they might go "liberal") and simply parrot back what the seminary professors present in class. The truth is that most seminarians are intelligent people who love God but need to have their pet beliefs challenged so they can think through why and what they should believe. That kind of education is challenging and often uncomfortable, but it makes for solid ministers and theologians. What I always thought was interesting was that a very large number of my HPU theology classmates turned out fairly hard-core conservative, but they knew how to talk about their faith forcefully and respectfully because they understood why other people believed differently than they did. In the same way, as something of a moderate, I certainly understand and respect persons who are much more fundamental because I (1) often agree with them on most issues, (2) understand their perspective and intent, and (3) know that they are trying very hard to be faithful to God, just as I am.

    Yet we don't see much understanding in the SBC because of the demonization of minor theological diversity and the stupid name calling that goes on if someone doesn't agree with the political leadership (i.e. "liberals/libs/libbies").
     
  9. Baptist Believer

    Baptist Believer Well-Known Member
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    Yep. Most pastors are keeping busy trying to serve their congregation and being faithful to the scriptures as they understand them.
    Yes, most of the problems in the SBC are problems between preachers trying to exercise power over each other.
    Yes. God is still working with His people even if the naysayers leaders aren't aware of it.
    Yes. If the SBC would make a rule that pastors and vocational ministers could not attend the annual meetings, only regular church members, the SBC would be in much better shape.
    The SBC is spending a lot of time and money planting churches. The younger ministers are doing most of the work in this regard. I hope the SBC will still be relevant to them in a few years.
     
  10. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    The use of the words liberals,libs,and libbies is not about name calling but instead about making reference as to their world view which is the basis of their ideology. It is saying that the view on one single issue is a product of the bigger liberal world view. Now liberals want to hide that fact so they demonize any attempt to make a correlation between them.

    What is also common among liberals is their arrogance that anything that does not bow at the alter of higher criticism is inferior whether it be education or otherwise. A sure sign of a liberal.
     
  11. saturneptune

    saturneptune New Member

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    Mr GB,
    Your rant against the SBC is unfounded. I have heard that story about Vegas for years, and neither you nor anyone else I have talked to about the matter has any proof. By the way, if it did happen, what sets that apart from seeing a woman walking down the street in tight shorts or a skimpy dress, and rerunning it in your mind. The Bible calls it lust, and to God, it is the same thing as adultery. So before you go trashing a group of people without proof, run it through your mind how many in your congregation are guilty of the same thing. Have you ever rerun such things in your mind?

    If the SBC is so "satanic" as you say, then you give very little credit to the local church and their judgement. If our congregation really thought your ideas were true, we would vote them out of our affliation in one day. As a matter of fact, just how hard would it be for a vote to be taken on any business meeting night to sever ties, especially given the few in number that attend.

    So you see, you are not only lumping the leadership and messengers at a convention in one catagory, you are saying that the entire membership of all local churches does not have sense enough to recognize such evil acts as you describe in your posts. In other words, everyone is wrong but you.

    Hmmmm, that I will stay with the judgement of my local church. What I really resent about your implications is that I came to salvation during a revival at a SBC church, and the people of my local congregation have done nothing but helped me in my spiritual life for well over 30 years. Sure, the denomination is not perfect, but it is where God has put me, and really, you have no right.

    You seem to have a gross misunderstanding of the local church's relationship to the SBC. You imply that the SBC is a great influence and power. They are one vote away from being history in each local church if needed. The last time I checked, we do not have a heirarchy of government.

    I know nothing of seminary politics, nor do I care about such garbage. If your anger was generated from one of these institutions or their teaching philosophy, you need to direct your anger at them. Maybe your time would be better spent ranting against denominations that do not believe that Jesus is God, or that the Bible is not Inspired, or ones that add something to the Gospel besides faith and grace.
     
    #31 saturneptune, Jun 30, 2009
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  12. Baptist Believer

    Baptist Believer Well-Known Member
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    In most cases I've seen and experienced, it is not. And how would you happen to know what someone's worldview is before you try to pin that label on them?

    And you somehow know this is the worldview of all the "liberals", that they are dishonest people?

    Uh huh... And "liberals" don't hold a monopoly on arrogance.

    So tell me what my worldview is:

    (1) Do I hold to the tenets of, or have appreciation for, the precepts of higher criticism?
    (2) Do I have a bias for or against supernaturalism?
    (3) What is my perspective on spiritual gifts? Do I think sign gifts (tongues, miracles, word of knowledge, etc.) are active today?
    (4) Do I believe in macro-evolution or some form of creationism?
    (5) Do I believe that Moses substantially wrote (either personally or through assistants) the Genesis--> Deuteronomy?
    (6) Do I believe the Bible is "full of errors" or very reliable?
    (7) How many authors do I think wrote what we now know as the book of Isaiah?

    I could ask many more questions, but since you think you know enough about other people's worldviews that you know only online to accuse them of being "liberals", I think it might be interesting to see what you really know about me.
     
  13. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    All the more reason why not to have a convention in sin city and spend your money there. If I read my Bible right it says to flee from the devil.

    Simply read Rev. 2 & 3. That is the reason why we must be alert, for the devil. . . .

    Compare that to Acts 17:11.

    While there are some great SBC churches and pastors there also some gripped by Satan's hand.

    No denomination is perfect but humility goes a long ways. I think that is the beef among most I know.

    I cannot say the same thing as you because I did not come to Christ through a local church but through a student sharing his faith. My wife came to know Christ the same way as I did. Being surrounded by godly men and women is much more important to me. My God is not limited by a convention or denomination. He will raise up what he wants from among those who will be used by Him and available for His work. I do not believe for one minuite that it would hurt God's work if every convention and denomination died today. I believe that new chruches would be started with an increased vigor and focus.

    What you wrote makes about as much sense as saying that the U.S. does not have a hierarchy. You do not understand leadership and how power comes about through influence. The power in a local church does not always reside in the pastor or deacons. It may reside in someone else depending on the church.

    I was involved in the SBC in church planting and lead the local association in missions work. So I think I know a little more than someone who is just in the congregation.

    Help me to understand how your apathy toward the seminaries is a good thing? Help me to understand how could you have written what you did earlier, "If our congregation really thought your ideas were true, we would vote them out of our affiliation in one day." How could you have written such a thing when you have chosen to remain ignorant of something the SBC does? You are doing exactly what the leadership would want until it gets its way.

    Actually I was very impressed with SWBTS and have not been impressed by the politics among the SBC leadership today nor then. I saw times when leaders stood against ungodliness but most often they were standing by themselves.
     
  14. saturneptune

    saturneptune New Member

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    double post
     
    #34 saturneptune, Jun 30, 2009
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  15. saturneptune

    saturneptune New Member

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    Yes, but you focus on the SBC, and the SBC only. Not one word from your mouth about denominations that do not believe Jesus is God, that add to the Gospel something besides faith and grace, not one word about denominations that do not believe in a Bible Inspired, not one word about denominations who tolerate gay lifestyles, and not one word about denominations who do not believe in spreading the Gospel.

    You are twisting words to facilitate your hatred of the SBC. I am surrounded by Godly men and women in a SBC church, and was surrounded by Godly parents in a Presbyterian church. You are implying that I am saying my salvation and growing depend on a Southern Baptist Church. Your agenda is quite clear. Yes, God does not need any denominations, but they are here, and He is carrying out His work through the local church. You are using twists of words to carry on your flawed agenda.

    That is pure baloney. I said the SBC does not have a hierarcy. If you planted a church that is influenced by outside authority, you did not plant a church, you planted a puppet building, and should be ashamed of being part of such. And by the way, the power does not reside with the pastor or deacons, it resides with the congregation. It sounds to me like you do not have a clue, which is amazing since you did plant churches.

    What does seminaries have to do with the SBC's relationship to my church? You are using seminaries just like you are using other tools, to trash the SBC. As I said above, you have said every local church under the SBC does not have sense enough to know if they belong to a "satanic" organization, as you put it.

    Some people have all the education in the world and no common sense.
     
    #35 saturneptune, Jun 30, 2009
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  16. sag38

    sag38 Active Member

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    Over and over again in this thread gb you have said nothing positive. Again, I'm not the one with the problem. I don't have to share positives with you. You would trash them anyway. Evidently you are a very angry and resentful person.
     
    #36 sag38, Jun 30, 2009
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  17. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    I thought the last time I checked the OP was about the SBC and this is a Baptist forum.

    That was the impression I got.

    The name is not important but the people are. Christ must reign paramount not denominational agendas and politics.

    Many denominations are dying but God's work is not. Ever wonder why? Ever wonder why numerous churches are dead or dying while in the same locations new churches are being planted in the same locations.

    You need to be informed about how the SBC plants churches before you make such statements. I would think that any of the local church planters would like your help in knocking on about 100 doors each month.

    When Paul planted churches WHO did the power reside in?

    Next time check and see where CP money goes. It is readily available. In fact there was a thread on it just a few days ago.

    You are right. Some have a lot of common sense and not Bible education. Their common sense is worldly sense. Sometime go to a SBC church growth conference and report back what you find.

    Dairy farmers can easily recognize manure when it is thrown at them. They have already seen a lot of it.
     
  18. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    What I can do is go by the body of posts on this board. Let me tell you what I do know about you. You support Dallas Willard who says that a person can be redeemed without knowing Christ. Now you can spin that any way you want the end is still the same.

    I also know that you divide pro-choice from pro- abortion. An absurd differentiation as pro abortion never insists everyone should get an abortion. The position of the two are the same. And what is more important is that the net effect is the same.

    And of course you deny that supporting Obama knowing in advance that he supports abortion is to support abortion as well.

    And if I remember correctly you support the eastern mystical contemplative prayer.

    Also the recent comment "Yep. Most pastors are keeping busy trying to serve their congregation and being faithful to the scriptures as they understand them." is deeply troubling. Conservatives are not afraid to stand boldly on the word of God. Liberals like to leave all kinds of caveats.

    Now past posts only go so far back. And while I cannot remember specifics I do remember that there has been a long line of completely extreme and far left views as I have already mentioned. The implications of the few views I have just mentioned are tragic and it is my prayer that you see the light on them.

    I would add that in my research I found two things worth adding:

    1. Your rhetoric in regards to Dr. Patterson in the past does not make itself stand out as being any different from the politics section or Rush Limbaugh.
    2. I was also reminded that you made a point to refute the allegation by someone else that I was a yes man for Satan and it is worth noting that I appreciate that.
     
    #38 Revmitchell, Jun 30, 2009
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  19. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    If they are true how can they be trashed?

    Is not the OP SBC meeting - 2009, Historical significance? Isn't the thread about the SBC or is it about Zoroastrianism and calvinism?

    Are you saying that Jesus should have never turned over the tax gatherers tables because that was offensive and he trashed the circumstances.
     
  20. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    What was the purpose in sarcasm (as you put it) that makes such implications? What kind of message were you trying to say exactly?
     
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