1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

"SBC Seminary President" Ergun Caner, Jerry Rankin, and the SBC

Discussion in 'Baptist Colleges & Seminaries' started by Rhetorician, Feb 27, 2010.

  1. TomVols

    TomVols New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2000
    Messages:
    11,170
    Likes Received:
    0
    The Virginia convention is not the SBC. If you want to claim it's a SBCV seminary, that's a different horse.
    Non sequitur. What is "affiliation" with the SBC? That's the key here - to understand our polity. There is no such thing as the local SBC. There's the state convention that supports the SBC. This is not mere semantics. Look at what happens on the state level when a college is no longer supported with state convention money or their trustees fail to be elected by that state convention. Then, they're no longer a state convention school, though Baptist they may be.
    This is only correct if you drop the "C" :smilewinkgrin:

    It's a distinction of common sense logic (no offense), polity, and you'll find it in the various c/bl of the state conventions, the SBC in principle, and in precedent of practice.

    It is no surprise that this is apt to so much confusion. SB polity is unlike any other. And frankly, no one in younger generations is getting good teaching (or any teaching) about it.
     
  2. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    52,013
    Likes Received:
    3,649
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I can be thick sometimes so it may just be that but I fail to understand the logic of "dropping the C" and how that changes anything one way or another. Does "C" stand for trustee control?

    Trustees are not in control of our church are we as a church only SB and not SBC? (rhetorical in nature)

    Why does that logic change for seminaries?
     
  3. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2006
    Messages:
    9,788
    Likes Received:
    698
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Just a reminder that TomVols's purported "uber-significant" phrase SBC seminary was not even used in the article cited in the OP.

    The OP author himself then switches "Southern Baptist" to "SBC":
    And also titles the thread:
    Fine, then don't use that term.
    Remember, you're the one who introduced that term in the OP and thread title, the article certainly didn't.
     
    #23 Jerome, Mar 2, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 2, 2010
  4. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    52,013
    Likes Received:
    3,649
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Explanation of Relationships

    The Southern Baptist Convention lists the following colleges and universities as a service to Southern Baptists and the Baptist state conventions with which it maintains a cooperative relationship. With the exception of the five theological colleges associated with our SBC seminaries, the Southern Baptist Convention has no direct connection with any of these institutions. It provides no funding. It elects no trustees. Each institution is related to one of our partnering Baptist state conventions.

    The Cooperative Program is the unified budget plan adopted by the SBC. Each state convention receives Cooperative Program funds from churches in its state or region. The state convention retains a portion of Cooperative Program contributions from its affiliated churches for missions and ministries in its respective state or region. If a college or university receives funding from a Baptist state convention, this funding comes only from Cooperative Program funds forwarded to the state convention by churches in that respective state. No Cooperative Program funds forwarded by the states to the national convention (the SBC) are allocated to a college or university related to any of our partnering Baptist state conventions.

    The SBC provides no scholarship assistance to any student through the SBC Cooperative Program Allocation Budget. Scholarship awards are coordinated through each respective college or university’s finance office in accordance with guidelines adopted by the individual school.

    The governance and funding procedures of the five colleges associated with the SBC seminaries are compatible with the Southern Baptist Convention’s bylaws and its Business and Financial Plan.


    http://www.sbc.net/colleges.asp
     
  5. preachinjesus

    preachinjesus Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2004
    Messages:
    7,406
    Likes Received:
    101
    Yeah, I think you are missing what makes a school/seminary an SBC school.

    Just because Liberty is affiliated with the SBCV doesn't allow it to obtain the moniker "SBC." It might be an SB affiliated school, but it isn't on the same level as the six SBC seminaries. Please note the specific language I used.
     
  6. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    52,013
    Likes Received:
    3,649
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Quite honestly the distinction seems quite childish
     
  7. TomVols

    TomVols New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2000
    Messages:
    11,170
    Likes Received:
    0
    The distinction is necessary and vital. What is at stake is who funds, controls, leads and directs the entities. The quote you quoted explains quite a bit and has some good info there.
    Well said.
    C stands for Convention. The SBC (which in a sense only exists a couple of days a year and boy, is that another topic of discussion) controls no state convention schools and indeed CANNOT - they're state convention schools. The fact that these state conventions are cooperating with the SBC is fine and good, and therein lies the major distinction.

    SBC=Southern Baptist Convention operated/led/controlled/funded/whatever. Identifies with the SBC and must adhere to the BF&M and trustees are elected by the SBC and money allocated by SBC. Very specific.
    SB=Something that is Southern Baptist in identity and can be so loosely or in tight cooperation with other affiliated bodies. A very vague moniker.
    Apples and bowling pins. The church elects its own trustees. The schools do not elect their own trustees. They are elected by a controlling entity, the SBC for the seminaries or the state conventions for the respective schools.

    Does Liberty elect their own trustees now, or does the SBCV elect them?
     
  8. TomVols

    TomVols New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2000
    Messages:
    11,170
    Likes Received:
    0
    Jerome, it depends on the meaning.

    If the author stated Dr. Caner was a Southern Baptist who happened to be a seminary president, that's one thing (and indeed true). If the author meant the seminary was Southern Baptist, and Caner was the President, well, that's wholly different. It depends on what is being modified as SB - the seminary or the president. LUther Rice has a SB as president. But that doesn't make it a SB seminary. Newburgh Theological Seminary is another. For that matter, Backwater State University could have a SB as president but that doesn't make it a SB institution.
     
  9. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    52,013
    Likes Received:
    3,649
    Faith:
    Baptist
    So then in your mind all state conventions and churches are only sb?
     
  10. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2005
    Messages:
    9,031
    Likes Received:
    2
    I don't think it is so much a problem in SBC circles as it is in the secular media, which may not be as schooled in the semantic subtleties of the terminology we use among ourselves.
     
  11. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2005
    Messages:
    9,031
    Likes Received:
    2
    I don't think any apology, repenting or standing corrected is necessary on your part. Knowing of your writing skills, if you intended to criticize or cast aspersions, no one would have to wonder about your intentions. Your intent would have been quite clear.
     
  12. TomVols

    TomVols New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2000
    Messages:
    11,170
    Likes Received:
    0
    1. In one sense, A State convention cannot be SBC. The SBC is its own entity. The Tennessee Baptist Convention cannot be SBC. State conventions are seperate and distinct entities that cooperate with the SBC. That which is seperate and distinct cannot be the same. Two different things altogether. No state convention is a member of the SBC. It is misleading (though popular) to refer to state conventions in this way. That said, due to some of the relationships between the SC and SBC via CP, all via cooperation, it's not necessarily wrong to say a state convention is SBC, but it's more correct to say it's in cooperation, or SB, rather than SBC. Given the way most SBs cant even get it right, let alone outsiders, we who know the truth must use our words carefully. Granted, the SBC recognizes relationships with various state conventions, but the two are distinct. There is no hierarchial relationship in structure, save for a mild one via finance through CP giving (and that's a stretch in some ways).

    2. Churches can be southern Baptist, but not SBC. Again, cooperation is key here. No church is a member of the SBC just like no state convention is a member of the SBC. It just doesn't work that way. However, it too is misleading though popular to refer to a church as an SBC church. SBC has no authority over the local churches - how can they be SBC churches? Churches are either in cooperation with the SBC or they aren't, which defines the sum of their cooperative relationship to the convention(s). Here as well, the SBC can refuse to hold a church in cooperation by refusing to seat its messengers, but that's all the SBC can do to a church.

    I personally believe a book on Baptist polity should be required reading for all seminarians. It's one of the first things I give a young man ordained to ministry.
     
    #32 TomVols, Mar 2, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 2, 2010
  13. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2006
    Messages:
    9,788
    Likes Received:
    698
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Um...yeah:

     
  14. Havensdad

    Havensdad New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2007
    Messages:
    3,382
    Likes Received:
    0
    Apparently, you know more than the administrators at the SBC: since they refer to the churches as "members" and "member churches."
    (I meant no offense by this: just poking fun)
     
  15. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2005
    Messages:
    9,031
    Likes Received:
    2
    If that's the terminology they use, then you are correct: TomVols does actually know more than the administrators.
     
  16. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2006
    Messages:
    9,788
    Likes Received:
    698
    Faith:
    Baptist
    SBC.net >>> About Us >>> Position Statements >>> Autonomy

    Wait...after a church gets expelled by the SBC, it is no longer a member of that body?
    Didn't TomVols claim that: "No church is a member of the SBC....It just doesn't work that way"?
    Y'all need to get your story straight:laugh:
     
  17. TomVols

    TomVols New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2000
    Messages:
    11,170
    Likes Received:
    0
    Jerome, a church is not expelled in union, only in cooperation/fellowship. You can't be expelled from something you were never a member of. Read the statement you quoted. It's hard to pick the words correctly, but those who know, know. And you're quoting a position paper (white paper), not the C/BL. What's hard is that people who are familiar with Presbys, UMC, even IFBs who are more hierarchial, refuse to throw away their templates when looking at SBC polity.

    http://www.sbc.net/aboutus/clchurches.asp

    This couldn't be more clear.

    Note the wording: nowhere does this state a church is a member of the SBC. The SBC is not comprised of churches - it's comprised of messengers. More on that later. Consult the consitution and bylaws of the convention for further information.
    http://www.sbc.net/aboutus/clwhyconvention.asp
    And consider this:
    Wait...you can be SB without being part of the convention? To some it will never make sense due to the templates they refuse to give up, but it is what it is. We are an inverted pyramid (and even that doesn't always work as an analogy).

    Havensdad: You should know by now I'm smarter than the average bear! :smilewinkgrin: (kidding, friend). Actually, even in SBC literature and among SB leaders, unfortunate terminology is used. I've been in meetings where someone has to correct themselves language-wise via polity. The SBC is such an unusual beast, you inevitably have these mental hip checks.

    A tract years ago exposed some of these misconceptions. One of the first myths was that churches comprise the convention. Even in a Baptist History and polity class years ago, you'd be surprised how many miss this question and answer that churches do.

    In my neck of the woods, home of two Church of God denominational HQs, we run into issues about this all the time, asking for our DOM or state convention president to step in and make a church do something. Folks have presuppositions that are hard to overcome because they are so ingrained.
     
    #37 TomVols, Mar 3, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 3, 2010
  18. Rhetorician

    Rhetorician Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2005
    Messages:
    2,208
    Likes Received:
    68
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Tom Butler Response

    Tom,

    You do not know how much I appreciate the vote of confidence. :thumbsup: Thank for your friendship.

    "That is all!"
     
  19. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2006
    Messages:
    9,788
    Likes Received:
    698
    Faith:
    Baptist
    OK, those of you who are so perturbed by a journalist's inaccurate (non-use) of the term "SBC" seminary, please explain what an "SBC Big Six" seminary is.

    You know, as in:
    or:
    Are there smaller SBC seminaries? Are there any other SBC seminaries at all?
    Then why "Big"?
    Why "Big Six"?
     
  20. TomVols

    TomVols New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2000
    Messages:
    11,170
    Likes Received:
    0
    There are only six SBC seminaries. They are funded via SBC CP monies.

    The "Big Six" is a play on a book title, the major accounting firms, and others.

    And these seminaries are some of the largest in the world. Sothwestern used to be biggest, and Southern is in the top 3 or 4. All six are in the top ten I believe.
     
Loading...