SBC vs. CBF one more time...

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by untangled, Nov 22, 2004.

  1. untangled

    untangled
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    Forgive me for bringing this up again.


    How can someone find a church that is purely Southern Baptist and not involved with the CBF? It is almost impossible to find around here. I've seen it cause a few problems when churches were dual affiliated. For instance, a church about twenty miles from my town broke up over an issue that arose due to the dual affiliation. The CBF supporters wanted to ordain a woman for pastoral ministry: The pastor and most of the congregation did not want it. After fueding for a while they split after the pastor resigned.

    I am not wanting to debate over women in ordained ministry, that was just an example. I want to align with a church that is only SBC but can not find one, period. Is this normal with the SBC? Is that why so many churches are just claiming "independent" status?

    In Christ,

    Brooks
     
  2. rsr

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    "I want to align with a church that is only SBC but can not find one, period. Is this normal with the SBC?"

    Not at all. My town is full of SBC churches, none of which are part of the CBF (although some members are individual members of the CBF.) I suspect this is purely related to geography and if you look further afield you'll find any number of SBC-only churches.
     
  3. untangled

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    Thanks for replying rsr. The CBF is being pushed real hard in NC (in my experience). I've met a few pastors that have pulled out of the SBC due to the CBF. I know they are out there. I just have to find them. Thanks again for replying.

    In Christ,

    Brooks
     
  4. Todd

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    untangled, I was in NC for 3 years, and your major problem there is that the state convention is consumed with moderates and the Editor of the state newspaper is as moderate as they come. Consequently, one would think that moderate state convention leadership would lend itself to more moderate/liberal churches, and that is exactly what has happened in NC. Unfortunately, the effect of the CBF has been felt by several unsuspecting SBC churches who normally had a few pro-CBF folks or a pastor come in and begin to try and lead them in that direction. The fact that SEBTS is now conservative again is going to correct much of the problem, but it is going to take several years to undo the damage that was done to many of the churches.

    To answer your question, the easiest way to find out what you're looking for is to contact the SBC leadership (through www.sbc.net, phone call, etc.) and ask for a list of churches in your area that are affiliated solely with the SBC. To my knowledge, that info is not "classified," and if it is it certainly shouldn't be. That's probably your best bet. You could call SEBTS and ask where some of the alumni from the past 5-10 years are now serving in your area. I can pretty well guarantee you that they're not serving in moderate CBF churches.

    RSR is right though - your problem in NC is one of geographics. Were you in my neck of the woods (East TN), you wouldn't have to worry about putting up with the CBF mess. In fact, I am currently assistant moderator of my local Baptist association and we have already begun work on changing our Bylaws so that no church aligned with the CBF can ever gain entrance into our association. Other conservative associations in your area ought to consider doing the same.
     
  5. untangled

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    Hey Todd,

    Thanks for replying. I have not thought of getting a list of alumni from SEBTS. I'm about to move into that area for seminary myself so I'm really going to need to find something. Should not be a problem there.

    In Christ,

    Brooks
     
  6. RandR

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    untangled,

    A number of SEBTS folks drive to Raleigh for church. There are a couple of good ones there with no dual affiliation.
     
  7. untangled

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    RandR,

    Are you familiar with NC? Sounds like you used to live here. I'll be moving to Raleigh/Wake Forest soon anyway. I have really been thinking about this issue for a while. The church I've been visiting used to be a conservative SBC until the creation of the CBF. Again, it lost a number of members due to the affiliation.

    What is probably my favorite church around here is an independent Baptist church. I am called to ministry and really believe God wants me to be involved in the SBC. The preacher from that church used to be a Southern Baptist but got out himself.

    I've experienced the CBF (I went to a big-time CBF supporting school for a semester). It did not sit right with me. When I get to Raleigh I'm sure there will be alot of different churches to choose from. Thanks for your help.

    In Christ,

    Brooks
     
  8. Todd

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    Brooks, I attended SEBTS from 1999-2001 and lived in Wake Forest for a year and a half. I can tell you several good churches to consider that are not dually aligned:

    1. Wake Cross Roads Baptist Church (on the outskirts of Wake Forest)
    2. Faith Baptist Church (just north of Wake Forest)
    3. Bayleaf Baptist Church (in Bayleaf, NC just west of Wake Forest)
    4. The North Campus of Bayleaf Baptist Church (I would really consider this one - it is close to campus and Will Graham, grandson of Billy Graham, is their pastor)
    5. Providence Baptist Church (the one draw back on Providence is that it is all the way down in Raleigh - it is really not necessary to drive that far to attend church)

    This should get you pointed in the right direction.

    Todd
     
  9. untangled

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    Thanks Todd. I appreciate the info. Be looking for a PM. Thanks.

    Brooks
     
  10. GeneMBridges

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    Todd,

    I am in NC...at the moment the actual leadership is predominantly conservative, NOT MODERATE. Let's repeat that, just one more time...the leadership of the convention...as in the elected leaders are CONSERVATIVE, NOT MODERATE. The denominational employees are predominantly moderate. However, that, too, is changing.

    I am a conservative. Tony Carteledge, the current editor of the Biblical Recorder is "moderate," but he and I have interacted on multiple occasions, and he is much more balanced than the previous editor. He is an editor of the newspaper, he is under an obligation to serve ALL NC Baptists, as in the NCBSC. He is under NO obligation to serve the SBC only, and that is how it should be because his paper has to serve such a wide range. If NC Baptists don't like his perspective, they don't have to read the BR. They have other options.

    Now, seeing you're in E. TN, it makes me wonder what you consider "conservative" and "moderate." In NC, we have been using the budget designations to determine that. Almost all the churches give through Option A, that is the standard designation w/roughly 70 percent to the state and the other 40 to the SBC. On the other hand, those conservative in the Western part of the state seem to have their own definition of what "conservative" means and take option D which divides between Fruitland Bible Institute and the SBC with less to the NSBSC. Of course, this is no different than the moderates who opt for Plans B or C which divide their money between either the CBF and the NCBSC or the SBC and certain seminaries of choice not affiliated with the SBC. Reading the words, "your state is 'consumed' with moderates, makes me wonder if you're using the definition of "conservative" that the folks in Cat. D of the budget use.Currently when churches send money to the BSC through Plan B, the BSC retains 68 percent and sends 10 percent to the SBC. The remaining money goes to missions partnerships, theological education and other causes.

    Plan C is similar to Plan B except the 10 percent is sent to the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship (CBF) rather than the SBC. The CBF is considered a missions and ministry alternative to the more conservative SBC.

    Under Plan D, the BSC keeps 50 percent and sends 32 percent to the SBC. The other 18 percent goes to Fruitland Baptist Bible Institute, church planting efforts and missions partnerships.

    Everybody knows why it's done...it's done because of our denominational politics. I have said it once I will say it again. The churches that are dually affilated here are not all dually affiliated because of theology. A great many are dually affiliated because the people in the pews are tired of the nepotism in the SBC and they also see the theological battle as a "preacher fight," that doesn't affect them. I don't see it that way, but they do, and that's the situation we have to deal with in NC.

    Untangled...all you have to do is find a church that gives to Plan A or Plan D. That's it. You don't have to go inquiring about all the theological ins and outs, besides not everybody is going to welcome you, a relative stranger, asking about their church business. There is an office at SEBTS that is designed to help students find churches. Use it.

    The NCBSC has been growing more and more conservative with each presidential term since the late 90's. After the Centrist group lost a couple major votes, moderates have become less and less influential in the convention. The biggest strongholds are in the eastern part of the state and in the student ministries offices in Cary. However, that is a function of the culture in NC as a whole, not denominational politics. All Christian denominations get progressively liberal between Greensboro and Wilmington. That's how it has been from the beginning, because that's the culture of the state.

    We tried to do away with Plans B,C, and D this past year. It was a bad move. The proponents of Plan A ended up alienating the folks giving to Plan D. That split the ranks, and, long story short, the entire plan to eliminate those plans was defeated. Next year, we will vote on the budget not for one year, but for two. You can expect this will come up again and this time the proponents of Plan A and Plan D will work out their issues. If that happens, you can expect "dually affiliated" churches to drop away quickly. It is already happening here, these churches are NCBSC affiliated and CBF affiliated, but not SBC affiliated. Untangled, you need to consider that when you hear "dually affiliated" thrown around...is it CBF/SBC or is it NCBSC/CBF.

    Untangled, yes, there are a lot of dually affiliated churches in the Triangle. That is because of the culture of the Triangle area itself. It is served by NCSU, UNC, Duke, Central, and several more universities, all of which are extradinarily liberal ideologically. The area is full of folks that have moved in from out of state, and the income level is higher, along with the standard of living. Those things typically produce a more liberal climate. Likewise, you are at SEBTS, which, not long ago was a truly liberal seminary, and Cary, home of the NCBSC denominational employees, and they have historically been moderates.

    You should be able to find some conservative churches. I suggest you talk to Dr. Robinson at SEBTS. You can also try the folks at Mt. Vernon Baptist over around Wake Forest Road. Contact Will Toburen at Calvary Baptist Church in Winston-Salem. Will is an SEBTS graduate and he can probably steer you in the right direction. Karl Minor, in Winston-Salem, is pastor of Beck's Baptist Church. He has also served the denomination on multiple committees. He came to Beck's from FBC Dunn. He may also be able to steer you in the right direction. I no longer have any contacts in the churches in the Triangle myself. Unfortunately, I can't help you, or I would. Of the ones Todd listed, Faith, Wake Crossroads, and Bay Leaf are familar to me. My best friend attended Faith. There is a professor or two at SEBTS that attends there. When I was at SEBTS, the pastor at Wake CRd.s was an SEBTS professor, Dr. Cogdill, and that is the church I attended. Providence Baptist has ties to my home church, Calvary Baptist W-Salem, but, like Todd says, it's in the middle of Raleigh on Glenwood Ave. There ARE SBC only churches in your area.
     
  11. untangled

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    Hey Gene,

    YOu mentioned Dr. Cogdill, isn't he at Campbell Divinity now? There's a Dr. Mike Cogdell at Campbell Divinity.

    Anyway, thanks for the post. I appreciate the input. When I get to the area I will check Bay Leaf and the rest of them out.

    In Christ,

    Brooks
     
  12. Todd

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    Brooks, your best bets for a church home (in my humble opinion) would be the North campus of Bayleaf (in the new Wakefield community) or Mt. Vernon (see Gene's post). Both are good, strong, conservative churches that give to the Cooperative Program as churches should give.

    Todd
     
  13. stevec

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    Please allow me to plead ignorance here. I checked my church, we are members of the SBC, Florida BC, North America Mission Board and International Mission Board, no CBF.

    So, what is the CBF and what's wrong with it?
     
  14. blackbird

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    untangled---we have just over 2000 SBC churches here in Mississippi

    Of the which---to the best of my knowledge---there are just a sprinkling(6, maybe 7) of those who openly call themselves "Dually aligned"---thats about 6, maybe 7 too many!!!!!

    We've tried to get the MBC to deal with these---along with one church who has a woman pastor---but the MBC won't do nothing about it!

    Then there are those churches who are "closet" dual supporters---

    Me??? I do not sympathize with the CBF one bit!!
     
  15. rsr

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    The Cooperative Baptist Fellowship is an association of former (and some current) Southern Baptist Churches that either:

    1. Are apostate liberals who are compromising the Gospel and condoning antibiblical and immoral proactices, or

    2. Orthodox Baptists sickened by the politics arising from the conservative resurgence in the SBC and alarmed at the secular politicization of the denomination, or

    3. Something in between.

    The CBF supports its own missions and has its own publishing house, and it supports some seminaries. It is a member of the Baptist World Alliance; upon the BWA's decision to accept the CBF as a member, the SBC withdrew over what it said were separational issues.

    Some differences are major, some are petty. The two hot-button issues now are acceptance of gays and the appropriatness of women pastors. The CBF has not taken a stand on those issues, although the organization "does not allow for the
    expenditure of funds for organizations or causes that condone, advocate or affirm homosexual practice. Neither does this CBF organizational value allow for the purposeful hiring of a staff person or the sending of a missionary who is a practicing homosexual."

    The CBF is less centralized even than the SBC; there is no equivalent to the Baptist Faith and Message, and it does not own any schools or seminaries.

    There are a number of churches that are affiliated with both the CBF and the SBC (the CBF also allows individual memberships, which the SBC doesn't). I expect the trend will continue to be toward single alignment, which some exceptions.
     
  16. untangled

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    Here in NC it is being pushed toward the CBF and dual affiliation. The regional associations are becoming more and more progressive in getting their churches to go the CBF route. I found out today the church I am attending has started with the CBF. Now 40 percent of the funds go CBF while the SBC still gets 60. Like I said before. In my hometown its almost impossible to find a church strictly SBC. Thank God I'm moving to go to seminary.
     
  17. OldRegular

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    Insofar as I know, in the community where I live, there is only one church affiliated with the CBF. I don't know whether they are affiliated with the SBC but I doubt it.

    It seems to me that Southern Baptists could make a simple change that would eliminate dual membership and improve the Convention in other ways.

    1. County Associations should declare nonfellowship with churches affiliated with the CBF or churches with women pastors.

    2. State Conventions and the SBC should not seat delegates from churches not in fellowship with the local associations.
     

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