Scapegoat

I'll tell you what the Seventh Day Adventist teaching on the 'scapegoat' is: It is an abomination before the Lord God. They now persisting in that abomination for nearly two centuries, have passed the stage of haughtiness; unrepented they will enter hell for it.

 

I am going to make this very very simple - partly as a service to GE and partly to make sure that eveyone has a chance to look in their Bible and check this out --

Please try and separate the "story telling" that your man-made traditions would "insert in place of scripture" from the clear facts of scripture -- the most blatant (in this case) being...

#3. Christ is NEVER called "our scapegoat" - not in all of scripture.

Some - may have missed that point ... but I will not repeat it again in this post. You will just have to wait for my next one.:laugh:

In Christ,

Bob

 

BR vainly quoting Scripture:
"For the life of the flesh is in the blood..."

GE:
"the life OF THE FLESH" ... but Christ's, "according to the Law of INDESTRUCTABLE LIFE". Can't you read?

 

"for it is the blood by reason of the life that makes atonement.' Animal sacrifices have no inate life, therefore NEVER really atoned for sin; the believer in the patience of the saints, waited Messiah their true, expectation. And when HE, came, it for the first and last time, "once for all", "by reason of the life" innate, intrinsic, indestructable, MADE, atonement. NO atonement without this Christ risen from the dead and His LIFE "presented before the LORD", "an offering for sins".

 

BR:
"Christ is NEVER called "our scapegoat" - not in all of scripture" ...

GE:
So Christ is not in all of Scripture called "First Sheaf Wave Offering Before The LORD"; so is He never called - never in all of Scripture - "Wave Bread"; never, "First Bread Wave Offering" ... etc.

 

(I meant "Show Bread" where I wrote "Wave Bread".)

 

Your proclivity for just "making stuff up" goes well beyond the Bible -- I freely admit it.

CHRIST is called "The first fruits" of those who are ASLEEP in 1Cor 15. And the feast of "First Fruits" is the one with the wave offerings of grain.

So your bogus idea that "We get to make stuff up so long as it sounds good instead of confining ourself to the details of scripture" is not supported here any better than it has been supported in your other efforts.

But as bogus as your wild suggestions are .... let's stop and think about what you propose with that last statement. You "think" that nothing is said about this symbol for Christ in the NT and that "we get to make stuff up as it pleases us" when those details are lacking.

But then you issue venom and vitriol against me on the subject of the scapegoat PURELY BASED on what YOU claim to have MADE UP - whereas I am sticking with scripture on the subject "WITHOUT the shedding of blood there is NO forgiveness of sin" and on the subject "SIN OFFERINGS make atonement THROUGH the BLOOD" and the clear fact that the Scapegoat is NEVER called "THE SIN offering" NOR is it even sacrificed.

So here we have ME holding firm to God's word AND YOU claiming that YOU are "making stuff up" just like you incorrectly claim that christians are making stuff up about the wave sheaf -- so IN YOUR MIND all of your vitriol and venom in your own posts is based on nothing more than your own whimsical choice to MAKE UP that Christ is the scapegoat EVEN THOUGH the Bible NEVER NEVER NEVER makes that claim about Christ!!

You sir - are fully exposed on this one!

In Christ,

Bob

 

BobRyan:
"CHRIST is called "The first fruits" of those who are ASLEEP in 1Cor 15. And the feast of "First Fruits" is the one with the wave offerings of grain."

GE:
Does it say "First Sheaf Wave Offering"? No, it does not. But every believer knows and admits it's the same 'thing' inferred. NOW: JUST THE SAME, Mr Genius BobRyan, Christ isn't 'called' the Live Goat of Lv16 - though He IS the Anti-Type of that very type. So I throw back to you, "So your bogus idea that "(GE) get to make stuff up so long as it sounds good instead of confining (him)self to the details of scripture" is not supported here any better than it has been supported in (his) other efforts.

BR:
"But as bogus as your wild suggestions are .... let's stop and think about what you propose with that last statement. You "think" that nothing is said about this symbol for Christ in the NT and that "we get to make stuff up as it pleases us" when those details are lacking."

GE:
Frankly, I don't get what you mean; for you read here as were you taking my stand. 'Empty made up stuff' of which yours is the exact exemplar.

BR:
"But then you issue venom and vitriol against me on the subject of the scapegoat PURELY BASED on what YOU claim to have MADE UP - whereas I am sticking with scripture on the subject "WITHOUT the shedding of blood there is NO forgiveness of sin" and on the subject "SIN OFFERINGS make atonement THROUGH the BLOOD" and the clear fact that the Scapegoat is NEVER called "THE SIN offering" NOR is it even sacrificed."

GE:
Yes : NO, atonement made even though WITH blood shod; for without the LIFE, it's lifeless indeed in effect.

But here's your fault: It is not the sacrifice or it's being sacrificed per se that atones; it's not the shedding of blood itself that secures forgiveness for sins. For then the sacrifices of animals should have made atonement once for all (like Christ's did) and the shedding of the blood of Christ would have been superfluous. This is Roman Catholicism to believe so.

What then does truly and effectually atone for sins? The offering of the blood before the Lord; that does! And how could it be offered before the Lord an acceptable offering (in other words, a pleasing offering)? ONLY THROUGH THE LIFE OF THE VICTIM -- which, in the case of Christ ONLY, was presented before God through the raising of Him from the dead. Consequently it is evident and unambiguous the blood of mortal animals could not and indeed did not atone for sins; it ONLY atoned in so far as it pointed to the true Lamb of God. Therefore it is said of such sacrifices that their life was in their blood: it explained their DEFICIENCY, not their efficiency. But you insist that blood only, blots out sins. Now if Christ be raised, in the type there must be found a symbol of this LIFE of Christ's that truly atones for sins, and hence the live goat of Lv16.

BR:
"So here we have ME holding firm to God's word AND YOU claiming that YOU are "making stuff up" just like you incorrectly claim that christians are making stuff up about the wave sheaf -- so IN YOUR MIND all of your vitriol and venom in your own posts is based on nothing more than your own whimsical choice to MAKE UP that Christ is the scapegoat EVEN THOUGH the Bible NEVER NEVER NEVER makes that claim about Christ!!

You sir - are fully exposed on this one!

GE:
You make a lot of noise with a lot of words, and say, ""So here we have ME holding firm to God's word". You do not impress me, 'Sir'!

 

I'm glad at least it has dawn upon you it's venom and vitriol I meant.

 

An example from my posts in the opinion of BobRyan, "bogus, made up, stuff":
NO atonement without this Christ risen from the dead and His LIFE "presented before the LORD", "an offering for sins".

So let it be 'made up', but 'bogus'? You, reader, decide before God!

 

You, reader, decide, whether there was life in the blood of Christ, and death in the blood of animals shod. For the life of the mortal thing shall be in his blood; once shod, life's gone for him.

 

How in the world did you ever suppose that this was not glaringly obvious in your every post???

I am truly curious how you could have thought your wild rantings to have been "subtle".

In Christ,

Bob

 

I "suppose" I should have left this as an exercise for the reader ...


Originally Posted by BobRyan
"Without the shedding of blood there is NO FORGIVENESS of sin" Heb 9

Lev 17 "I have given you the blood to make atonement for the LIFE is in the blood"

11'For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you on the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood by reason of the life that makes atonement.'

#1. The scapegoat is NOT the "sin offering" of Lev 16.
#2. Christ is both the sin offering AND our high priest according to the NT
#3. Christ is NEVER called "our scapegoat" - not in all of scripture.

ahhh - the inconvenient details of scripture seen once again to debunk "story telling".


Please try and separate the "story telling" that your man-made traditions would "insert in place of scripture" from the clear facts of scripture -- the most blatant (in this case) being...

#3. Christ is NEVER called "our scapegoat" - not in all of scripture.

 

Dear BobRyan,
You are the perfect specimen of those of the Church you claim you are, the seventh, Laodicea!

 

BobRyan, Do you really believe and confess: "11'For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you on the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood by reason of the life that makes atonement.'"? What need do you have of Christ then? Why don't you make sacrifice any more? Either you actually find real atonement in BLOOD of sacrifices; or you find NONE in it, but in the LIFE of the risen Christ.

 

See GE - I actually "enjoy believing in the Word of God" instead of trashing what does not please me and then "making stuff up" to fill in the gaps.

Surely you see that distinction by now.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Have you answered my question in the affirmative?

 

Why all this etherial explanation about the two goats. One beiing the devil and the other Christ. If you read levitical history the two goats are non other than just two goats sacrificed for the sins of the priest and people. One for the priesthood and one for the people. Simple as that. Read Heb. 5, 1-3; 9, 7. Levitical history is alot more interesting than hyperbole or hypothesy.........or whatever you call it.


V.5. And he shall take of the congregation of the children of Israel, as the joint offering of the entire people, and therefore supplied by them, two kids of the goats for a sin-offering and one ram for a burnt offering. Although the ritual dealt with the two young goats in an entirely different manner, yet they both together constituted a single sin-offering. Thus the sacrificial victims both for the priesthood and for the congregation were provided. V.6. And Aaron shall offer his bullock of the sin-offering, which is for himself, and make an atonement for himself and for his house, the term here apparently including not only the immediate family of the high priest, but the whole order of priests. Since all the priests were representatives and mediators of the people in their dealings with the Lord, it was necessary that their own sin, first of all, be covered and expiated in the sight of God. V.7. And he shall take the two goats, and present them before the Lord at the door of the Tabernacle of the Congregation, formally set them forth in their character as sacrificial animals, before the face of the Lord. According to Jewish tradition the two goats were of the same size and otherwise as identical as possible in their markings. V.8. And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats, the lots being drawn from an urn by some attendant; one lot for the Lord and the other lot for the scapegoat, or Azazel, as the Hebrew has it, for the “Remover of Sin.” Both he-goats bore the sins of the people, the one through the act of sacrifice, the other by complete removal into the wilderness. V.9. And Aaron shall bring the goat upon which the Lord’s lot fell, and offer him for a sin-offering, in the manner prescribed for such sacrifices. V.10. But the goat on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, to symbolize the complete removal of all transgression and iniquity, shall be presented alive before the Lord, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness. So much for the preparation for the sacrifices. V.11. And Aaron shall bring the bullock of the sin-offering, which is for himself, and shall make an atonement for himself and for his house, for the entire priesthood, and shall kill the bullock of the sin-offering which is for himself. This was the first stage of the day’s sacrifices. V.12. And he shall take a censer, a pan or vessel, full of burning coals of fire from off the altar before the Lord, from the altar of burnt offering, and his hands full of sweet incense beaten small, the form in which its perfume would be strongest, and bring it within the veil, into the Most Holy Place; v.13. and he shall put the incense upon the fire before the Lord, that the cloud of the incense arising from its burning in the censer may cover the mercy-seat that is upon the testimony, that covers the tables of the testimony, that he die not. The cloud of incense protected the high priest, a sinful human being as he was, from the angry glance of the holy God. V.14. And he shall take of the blood of the bullock, which had been caught up by some attendant and meanwhile kept from coagulating by constant stirring, and sprinkle it with his finger upon the mercy-seat eastward, on the side which faced the east; and before the mercy-seat, between the ark and the veil, shall he sprinkle of the blood with his finger seven times. This was the second stage of the special sacrifices of the day, whereby the atonement for the priesthood was completed. The atonement was made, not without blood, for without the shedding of blood there is no remission, and for the high priest and his house first, Heb. 5, 1-3; 9, 7.

THE OFFERINGS FOR THE PEOPLE. - V.15. Then shall he kill the goat of the sin-offering that is for the people, the slaying taking place, of course, outside in the court, and bring his blood within the veil, into the Most Holy Place, and do with that blood as he did with the blood of the bullock, and sprinkle it upon the mercy-seat and before the mercy-seat v.16. and he shall make an atonement for the Holy Place, the Sanctuary itself being in need of cleansing, because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel, and because of their transgressions in all their sins, for it was exposed to defilement in the midst of a sinful people; and so shall he do for the Tabernacle of the Congregation, that remaineth among them in the midst of their uncleanness. Thus both the sins of the priests, with which they had contaminated the Sanctuary, and the transgressions of the people, which also defiled the habitation of God in their midst, had to be expiated on the great Day of Atonement. V.17. And there shall be no man in the Tabernacle of the Congregation when he goeth in to make an atonement in the Holy Place, until he come out, and have made an atonement for himself, and for his household, for the entire priesthood, and for all the congregation of Israel. Everything and every person that was defiled had to be kept away from the Most Holy Place during this most solemn part of the ceremony, and the entire responsibility rested upon the high priest alone. While all the members of the congregation were, on this day, to feel the damnable nature of sin, the high priest was to be particularly conscious of this fact, since he acted in the name of all the children of Israel. V.18. And he shall go out unto the altar that is before the Lord, to the altar of incense, and make an atonement for it; and shall take of the blood of the bullock, and of the blood of the goat, and put it upon the horns of the altar round about. So the blood of both kinds of sin-offering was mingled in the expiatory rite, the faults of both the priests and the people being atoned for in the sight of God by this third stage of the day’s sacrificial ceremonies. Note that even the altar, as an instrument used for purposes of purification and atonement, had to be cleansed of the defilement clinging to it by reason of the worship of sinners. V.19. And he shall sprinkle of the blood upon it with his finger seven times, and cleanse it, and hallow it from the uncleanness of the children of Israel. The ceremonies of the great Day of Atonement were largely Messianic types. Christ is the true High Priest, holy, blameless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens, Heb. 7, 26. By His own blood He entered in once into the Holy Place, having obtained eternal redemption for us, Heb. 9, 12. V.20. And when he hath made an end of reconciling the Holy Place and the Tabernacle of the Congregation and the altar, he shall bring the live goat, the second animal of the sin- offering. V.21. And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, not only one, as in the ordinary sacrifices, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, individually and collectively, and all their transgressions in all their sins, all the misdeeds and trespasses which brought upon them the wrath of Jehovah, putting them upon the head of the goat, the “remover of sins,” and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man in to the wilderness, one who stood ready to go in an instant, without loss of time; v.22. and the go at shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited, into a desert and desolate place, for complete removal; and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness. Thus the fourth part of the special ceremonies of the day was brought to a close

 

#1. The scapegoat is not sacrificed - not slain and not identified as "the Sin offering" once the Lord's goat has been identified as "The Sin offering".

#2. The scapegoat of Lev 16 and the demon goat of Lev 17 are similar.

#3. "Without the shedding of blood there is NO forgiveness of sins" Heb 9.

#4. "I have given you the blood - it makes atonement.. for the life is in the blood" Lev 17.

be not decevied - the goat NOT sacrificed - NOT slain - NOT "a burnt offering" - and therefore NOT 'a sin offering' by definition in Leviticus - is not a "substitutionary atoning sacrifice".

In Christ,

Bob

 

And Aaron shall bring the goat upon which the Lord’s lot fell, and offer him for a sin-offering,


ONLY ONE - is said to be "The SIN offering" --

V.15. Then shall he kill the goat of the sin-offering that is for the people

ONLY participates as "the sin offering" - and its blood is shed "as a sin offering" as a substitutionary atoning sacrifice "for the people"