Scary passage in the bible (Uzza being killed by God)

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by xdisciplex, May 29, 2006.

  1. xdisciplex

    xdisciplex
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    1Ch 13:8 And David and all Israel played before God with all their might, and with singing, and with harps, and with psalteries, and with timbrels, and with cymbals, and with trumpets.
    1Ch 13:9 And when they came unto the threshingfloor of Chidon, Uzza put forth his hand to hold the ark; for the oxen stumbled.
    1Ch 13:10 And the anger of the LORD was kindled against Uzza, and he smote him, because he put his hand to the ark: and there he died before God.
    1Ch 13:11 And David was displeased, because the LORD had made a breach upon Uzza: wherefore that place is called Perezuzza to this day.
    1Ch 13:12 And David was afraid of God that day, saying, How shall I bring the ark of God home to me?
    1Ch 13:13 So David brought not the ark home to himself to the city of David, but carried it aside into the house of Obededom the Gittite.

    Why was Uzza killed?
    Somehow when I read this I become really scared of God and feel so alienated from him, it's as if I don't know how God is at all. What if my picture of God is totally wrong and I only think of the nice Jesus who loves everybody? But when I'm afraid of God then it also doesn't help me. It simply doesn't work this way. Next time I sin I might think of these bible verses and fear that God might kill me any moment now because he might be totally angry at me. This way God becomes some sort of dictator in my mind who you have to be totally careful with because otherwise he might kill you. :(

    I don't want to judge God but I am only human and I have problems understand why God acts in certain ways.
    Did they transport the ark in a wrong way or what was their mistake? I also don't understand why David brought the ark to the other guy and left it there. There isn't much information in the few verses.Somehow this simply doesn't work. Once I think I know how God is I find something like this in the bible and am totally confused that God is so strict. Jesus seems to be so different. Can you imagine Jesus doing something like this? I can't. But maybe this picture which we have of the nice Jesus also isn't correct. Maybe my whole picture of God is distorted.This is really great.What if I couldn't even deal with how God really is? What if this would scare me too much or what if I would criticize God and not agree with him from my human perspective? What do I do then?
    Or what if I sin and then think what if God sends fire from heaven now because he's angry at me? It simply doesn't work this way. When I'm all scared of God and when the only motivation to obey God is fear then it simply doesn't work.
    How can you feel well when you're dealing with somebody who has such high standards and who can kill you at any moment? Then you become totally scared of doing a mistake. I don't think that Uzza did iit wrong on purpose. Most likely he was trying to help. I

    I don't think I would have wanted to live during the old testament times. One mistake and you're gone...
    Somehow it's always the same. I'm always torn between God being good and mercyful and these scary passages where God seems totally strict. Why wasn't Uzza given the chance to repent? But maybe this also angers God that I question why wasn't Uzza given a chance to repent. I feel like no matter what I do God might be angry at me. Is it even allowed to talk about such things or do we simply have to accept that God did it this way? But the problem is that it's simply not possible to fear God and at the same time feel well in his presence. How is this supposed to work? Imagine your father has supernatural powers and once you were with him and another person said something wrong and he killed this person with his supernatural powers without using any force, the person just dropped dead. Wouldn't this stuff be on your mind and you would somehow fear your father because he has such great powers? Wouldn't this always stand between you somehow because you think what if he does the same thing with you one day?
    This is how I feel with God. But since God is so powerful how can you not fear him? But if you fear him you cannot even have a normal relationship with him unless you only focus on some sides of God and leave the others out. If you only focus on the "nice Jesus" and then only tell yourself how much God loves you and sugarcoat everything then you can enjoy God and feel well but this also isn't the real picture of God because it purposely doesn't include all sides of God.
    I really don't know how this is supposed to work. If you only obey God and try not to sin out of fear then this also isn't the right way. :(
     
    #1 xdisciplex, May 29, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: May 29, 2006
  2. Pete

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    In R.C. Sproul's book "The Holiness of God" he spends 8-9 pages on this topic.

    "...God had declared that the touching of the ark of the covenant was a capital offense....The elaborate construction of the ark, complete with golden rings through which long poles were inserted , was so fashioned as to make it clear the ark itself was not to be touched. Only the poles could be touched by man and inserted into the rings for the purposes of transport....We must ask the question, what was the ark doing on an oxcart in the first place?....He touched it anyway....Uzzah was not an innocent man."


    Too often in Churches today we just hear of God's Love & Mercy and can get an unbalanced view of God. We also have to keep in mind His Holiness & Justice.
     
  3. Joseph_Botwinick

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    Amen to that.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  4. North Carolina Tentmaker

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    Xdisciplex asked

    You are partially right, God had been very specific when it came to the ark and they were doing everything wrong. The ark was supposed to be carried by the priests on foot and they had it in an oxcart. They had replaced the priests, the men of God with oxen.

    God was just in that he had declared touching the ark a capital offense and when it occurred then He did what he said he would.

    Uzza was trying to help. He had the best intentions in the world. King David also had good intentions; he wanted to bring the ark to Jerusalem. He wanted to honor God. Their intentions were pure and good. But in their execution they disobeyed the directions given by God himself. Their sin was out of ignorance but still had fatal consequences for Uzza.

    The message for us today is crystal clear. It is not enough to have pure motives and intentions. God has given us clear instructions and when we fail to follow them we invite disaster.

    David put the ark in a safe place. Then he went back to Jerusalem, they opened God’s word and they figured out what they were doing wrong. Then they went back and moved the ark correctly, and God blessed them. (and Obededom).
     
  5. xdisciplex

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    Yes, I understand what you're saying and I agree. If God said it has to be done this way and they did it their own way then this wasn't okay.
    But somehow it's still so scary. I mean this makes me feel like next time I make a mistake God might do the same with me. :tear:
    Somehow there is this great dissonance which I simply cannot bypass. What if our picture of God is really wrong? What if they paint a wrong picture of God as the loving daddy?
    But what if I could not even stand God's real picture? What if I would be terrified and only serve God out of fear? :(
    This also doesn't work. I want to obey God or at least try to obey God as good as I can but not out of fear of being annihilated or punished. :tear:
    Jesus also didn't force his disciples to be with him or to help him because otherwise they will be punished. Jesus was together with them as if they were friends, right? Was the period with Jesus on earth a special case and now where he is gone nobody can have a relationship to Jesus like his disciples had because Jesus is no longer on earth and now he's back in heaven and no longer like a friend but more like a God who is not accessable and who you have to keep distance to?
     
  6. Marcia

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    Xdisciplex, from what you say here, you do not sound like a believer.

    You are not distant to Jesus if you trust in him as your Savior. You need to believe that he paid penatly for your sins on the cross and you put your life into his hands, knowing you are forgiven and that you have eternal life when you do this. This is how one gets a relationship with Jesus.

    Have you done this? Because it sure sounds like you haven't.
     
  7. Trotter

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    The ark represented God's prescence among His people. It was holy, just as God is holy. That's why only the priests were to carry it, and only then with the gold-covered staves. The priests never actually touched the ark.

    Uzzah acted out of instinct, to try to keep that which represented God among the people from crashing to the ground. But, in doing so, he physically touched the ark, which would be like touching God. The very nature of God is so far beyond what we can comprehend as holy, yet Uzzah touched it. That very holiness decided his fate right then and there.

    Xdisciplex, the God of the Old Testamant is the God of the New Testament, and He is the God of today. BUT, He has made a way for us to be declared holy just as He is holy. When a person accepts Jesus Christ as thier Lord and Savior through faith in who He is and what He has done, the veru holiness of Jesus (who is also God the Son) is imputed to that person. That holiness is deposited into the spiritual account of the recipient, and it will never diminish.

    We who have believed have received that righteousness, that holiness. We have been declared heirs of God and joint-heirs with Christ. And through the righteousness that Christ has bestowed upon us, we can enter into the very prescence of God without fear.

    Not only that, but through grace, the unmerited favor that God has given us, we are forgiven. God doesn't sit in heaven with a big stick just waiting to smack us when we screw up (even though some teach this...). He is out Father, and as our Father He loves us. Oh, he corrects us from time to time... Corrects, not punishes. Even though that discipline can be very painful sometimes, He uses it to move us, to change us, to shape us into a vessel He wants.

    Hopefully, this has made a little sense.
     
  8. Eric B

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    To add to all of this, the purpose of the Old Testament was to establish God's hiliness, and our sin and falling short of it, and what that sin deserves. The Israelites saw all of that, and yet did not get it, thinking by the time of Jesus, that they had actually mastered the Law in a way their fathers obviously never had. Jesus showed them that they were just as sinful as the fathers, and the reason more people weren't being struck down then was because God's presence had left the Temple as we see in Ezekiel. So the purpose of the New Testament is to show us that despite the wrath we deserve, God is now offering grace, without which no one could ever stand in His presence.

    Then you have incidences like Ananias and Sapphira, and this too, I believe the preterists had a great point in saying that even in the NT times they were still sort of between testaments, so there was some OT style severity at times, and warnings about persevering (which would otherwise contradict salvation by grace through faith, and it would be unto something which would occur in their lifetimes) but after the system of the Law was finally destroyed, then salvation and mercy were finalized, and with all the error in the Churches in history after that, nobody is struck down. We all still do have to account for what we have done and taught after this life, though.
     
    #8 Eric B, May 30, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: May 30, 2006
  9. xdisciplex

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    But when Ananias and Saphira were struck down and this was already in the times of Jesus' death then why shouldn't this happen today, too?
    I have heard stories of a pastor who refused to let an evangelist speak at his church who was sent by God (or at least he said he was sent by God) and then he was struck down in the pulpit. I even think this story was from Hagin. This sounds scary.
     
  10. Eric B

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    Like I said; I believe all of that type of thing ended in AD70, when the Old Covenant was symbolically ended for good and the age of grace fully manifest. Many do not believe this, and so many claim to continue miracles or temporal retributive judgment today, and people like Hagin are apart of the sensationalistic strain of the Church today. Don't be troubled by what they say; it's all hearsay. Anyone can be killed by anything in life at any time, Christian or non Christian, sinning or repentant, and anyone can prosper to a ripe old age, Christian or non-Christian, sinning or repentant. Of course, anyone who has a disagreement with a person can claim that it was God striking them down when something bad happens, or that they must be godly if things are going good. But things just don;t work that way anymore. God could do it, but most of the time He doesn't, so people who try to play on this are basically trying to proft off of the gullibility of the masses.
     
  11. xdisciplex

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    But it's still scary.
    Imagine a christian comes to you and says either you let him speak or God will strike you down! :eek:
     
  12. Marcia

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    That's not the same thing at all. In the case of Uzza, it had to do with God's very specific commands about the Ark. This was in another time, another culture, and another place. There is nothing like this now.

    You need to study the Bible on your own. I'm going to say this every time I post a response to one of your questions. Why don't you want to learn and study the Bible yourself?
     
  13. Trotter

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    I'm afraid he'll be the one struck down... and I don't think it'll be God doing the striking.

    When someone stands and declares that they speak for God, it usually means they want everyone to hear what they think... but that seldom has anything to do with what God would want said.
     
  14. Eric B

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    Have some patience with him. There are so many people interpreting the Bible so many different ways, it's confusing enough that you can read it for yourself and still not know what it means, because you have seen what you read taken all these ways.
    When I first came to Christ, I had a lot of questions like this, and went to different groups, and read myself, and weighed all the teachings, and eventually came to my own conclusions.
     
  15. xdisciplex

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    Simply answer.
    Because I don't understand the bible. There are 100000 different interpretations out there. Every christian thinks he knows it all while all the others are wrong, this seems so silly to me. When I read the bible and simply somehow make up my own interpretation then most likely it would be wrong, too and besides this I don't understand the bible! I am simply disillusioned. Trying to read the bible only frustrates me. Why shall I even try it anymore? I also prayed before reading it. I only get new questions and never got insights or revelations. :tear:
     
  16. J. Jump

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    xdisciplex you are entering very dangerous grounds. Satan is trying to keep you out of the Scriptures telling you that not only can you not understand it, but no one else does either so why bother.

    Don't believe the lies. Stand firm. Bible study is not easy.

    When getting into the meat of Scripture and the strong meat of Scripture it takes a lot of work. It is not easy. Unfortunately there are pastors (too many) that say if I can't understand it in the simple reading of the words then I don't need or want to know what it means.

    If you want to move off the milk and onto the meat it is going to be work. Adam was told that it was by the sweat of his brow that he was going to eat bread. Guess what that's true in our spiritual lives as well. If you want to eat the Bread of Life then it will come by the sweat of your brow as you work and dig deep into God's Truth.

    Be of good courage, because greater is He that is in you than he that is in the world.
     
  17. xdisciplex

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    But it simply makes no sense to me.
    Tell me J.Jump, what shall I do? Shall I simply read a verse which I don't understand 200 times in a row? Isn't this stupid? Or shall I simply read and read and read and not even care if I don't understand anything? I cannot do this! Even if I say to myself "Now I'm gonna read and not even care if I get it" it won't work. It will take minutes and I'll be all frustrated and I also don't feel others are the same. I feel like others understand everything much better than me! When I ask others they always have an answer but I don't. I never have an answer. :tear:
    Maybe this is simply how I am. I am not creative and cannot get answers if I have no clue. There are other people which I feel could always come up with an answer even if they don't know much.
    After all do not all christians dig in the bible? If sooner or later you got the right meaning then all christians should agree but they don't. This is exactly what makes it look so senseless to me. Why even get an own opinion if you can never know if you're right? Maybe you get totally wrong opinions and this causes even more harm, maybe you get totally wrong doctrines and then think you're right while you're wrong. What sense does this make?
    Also I think no human can do anything for a long time without getting a sense of achievement. If I read the bible and get no sense of achievement I get frustrated.
     
  18. J. Jump

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    xdisciplex I don't deny what you are feeling is valid, and I myself as well as many others have felt these same things. But giving up is not the answer, because even if Christians can't agree on doctrine we can certainly agree that the Bible says that we are to continue to run the race. We are to stand firm. We are to overcome.

    And we can't do any of that from the sidelines. It's a spiritual battle that we are fighting and we have an active enemy that seeks our destruction. That destruction will come when we give up the fight and we bow out of the race.

    I don't have any solid answers to give you other than to have faith that when God said seek and ye shall find, ask and it shall be given to you that He meant what He said. I don't know how the details will work out for you, but I know that is the truth.

    Over four years ago God had allowed me to get to a point in my life that was very low. Some of the consequences I am still dealing with to this date. But at that point He gave me a fresh look at Jesus as my Savior. And from that point forward I have prayed that as much as I can I will empty myself of man's teachings and man's traditions and I asked Him to teach me His truth. And I asked Him to surround me with preachers and teachers that know His truth.

    And I believe He has answered that prayer and continues to answer that prayer to this date and will continue to answer that prayer as long as I continue to seek Him and search for Him.

    I have had to eat crow and I have had to change some doctrines that I previously held, but I believe I am closer to the Truth now than when I started, but there's still a journey still ahead. And I pray that I will continue to run the race, and I pray that I will be found a faithful servant when that day comes, and I pray that I will be found an overcomer, just as He overcame.

    Bible study takes time. Don't rush God. This is what I find frustrating, becauase I feel like I have wasted several years of my life and I'm trying to be at the point I should be right now without the several years off which you can't make up. It's a process and we have to let God be Lord of that process and trust that He will bring us along at the pace He deems best for us!

    Keep reading the Scripture. If you get to something that you don't understand, don't get bogged down in that area. Keep seeking and searching and then God will connect the dots for you at some point. I can't answer when and neither can anyone else, but again He has told us that He will, and He will if we believe Him.

    Cry out to God and let Him know how frustrated you are and tell Him that you want to know His Truth and not man's truth.
     
  19. xdisciplex

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    This sounds all so good, J.Jump. But how can God teach me if I don't hear him? And do you think God will answer all of my thousands of pedantic questions? I just wish I wasn't so pedantic and didn't have so many questions. :(
    And alone I can totally forget it I will never get anything done alone. I know myself. I mess it up. I needed someone to explain things to me but I have noone. It's simply totally hopeless.
     
  20. J. Jump

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    Don't buy into that lie. If anything the exact opposite is true.

    Unfortunately there is not a how to book on how to hear from God :) I have been trying to figure this out for a long time now. I think the more you search and the more you mature the easier it gets. Also sin plays a huge role in this. If you are living in unconfessed sin that will hinder you from hearing from God until that sin is dealt with.

    There's a lot of factors that play into hearing from God and I can't give you real specific answers and no one has ever been able to give me real specific answers, but I know without a doubt that He is faithful to His Word. And it says seek and ye shall find. If any man lacks for wisdom let him ask God for it.

    He's true to His Word, so I'm going to keep seeking and searching and asking until He returns or until He takes me out :)

    I think He will answer the ones that are valuable for you to know the answer to.

    That's the great thing and the scary thing about technology. We're never alone :) We're never alone, most importantly, becuase we are told that He will never leave us nor forsake us. And we have the Holy Spirit to teach us.

    But we also have a vast number of resources available to us. Be discerning through prayer what you find though.

    I always tell people don't believe what I say, because I say it, because I am nobody. Search the Scriptures and see if it is true.

    I think God has provided us with some very Godly teachers, but I also believe that when it is all said and done we will have to answer to Him as to why we believed what we believed. I don't think we should be into controlling what people believe as some do, but sharing information and then allowing each person to make up their mind.
     

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